Hacker News Reader

Comment by jrs235 | Hacker News Reader

A comment on the first comment of the article: "This last part reminds me of something recently. Because management needs to feel like they have control over what's going on, as a technical person, you should do the right thing, but only 90% when you show it to them and make the 10% that is miss quite obvious. The reason is so that when you present it to them, they can point out the missing piece of the project and feel like they have contributed."

I hate this. I hate having to play these games and tricks. I want to work with people that are aware of [psychology and] how much time is wasted having to do such things. However, I realize most people don't know nor care about psychology and so I am the one that should adjust knowing the things I do. It just sucks because I still struggle with it.

View on HN

I couldn't agree with your comment more! This is the same situation I am in with my job. I know I have to play these stupid and pointless mind games/tricks to get the right thing to happen, but I wish I didn't have to. It's a lose-lose situation, and this is definitely not the first job I have had that had this problem. I don't get what it is with people in upper management having to be right all the time. The reason you hire people in certain specialties is to trust them with the issues, just like I trust upper management to handle upper management issues. It's a very frustrating (and never-ending, it feels like) cycle.

Yeah, if you had an office populated with Vulcans and robots, I can see that strategy being effective for you.

Unfortunately, as a functioning adult, you have to take other people's feelings into account, even when they are (GASP!) wrong. The reality is even if you are completely 1000% correct, if you don't give the other person a way to save face, they will fuck you over given the chance. The solution is simple - be nice.

First, I'm not sure how the comment you are replying to has anything to do with saving face, it has to do with playing games and tricks like intentionally leaving work incomplete or adding ridiculous "ducks" to be removed. I fail to see how "playing games" is being compared to being nice. Perhaps you accidentally replied to the wrong comment?

I am a functioning adult, that's why I struggle with these issues instead of just cutting "the crap" out completely and causing relationship friction. It's just that as a mature adult who recognizes human irrationality, psychology, and short comings one would think we'd identify wasteful games and work to remove them. (Even I recognize I'm missing things and blind to my own biases. I don't mind if when people "call me out" on it so I can at least reflect on my behaviors and "short comings".)

Leaving outs and face saving opportunities is always a wise decision. I'm the first to defend someone when they choose to change their mind.

"That looks great. Just one thing – get rid of the duck."

For those wondering about the reference here: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/07/new-programming-jar...

I couldn't agree more. Every time I read articles like this that suggest all these mind games and effort required to get simple tasks completed, I constantly wonder how nice it would be to work somewhere where none of that was necessary.

This can't be the most efficient way of doing things. I think it's also a strong argument for having a management and executive team that is actually technical.

Note: I find myself in this exact situation at my current job - multiple non-technical managers that don't realize how much they don't know and constantly make asinine requirements or timelines and reject advice from more technical experts.

Its unfair to group this article with your peeve. Your comment's parent is not about the article itself - its about a comment in the article's comment section. The article is well laid out and not talking about 'tricks' like 'leave obvious gaps' - its talking about general principles of negotiating and communicating with non-technical people.

>>"Note: I find myself in this exact situation at my current job - multiple non-technical managers that don't realize how much they don't know and constantly make asinine requirements or timelines and reject advice from more technical experts."

I'm surprised you did not find tips to apply in the article.

These are no more 'games and tricks' than having to expend more energy walking uphill than downhill is a game or trick.

I am horrible at inter-office politics. I want so badly for things to be "efficient" - but it is always efficient for me. My boss has me print hard copies of email and put them in a physical folder AND has me copy the email as a PDF and sstore it in a sub folder of the project folder. Mind-blowingly inefficient on so many levels. But it's his way, and it's his firm. And I fought him on it, and so many other things, for so long, really fought with both of us screaming, I have poisoned the well. He won't ever trust me because I handled our conflicts so poorly in the past. He's allowed to handle them poorly - he pays my salary.

Putting in intentional errors so someone else can catch them and think they contributed... that IS 'games and tricks'. Whereas your example (sending things in an inefficient way) is just a matter of accommodating someone else's way of working.

Accommodation is a good idea, game-playing may work in the short run, but it does not build long-term trust.

What you are describing isn't a game or trick. It's what your boss is asking you to do that you are complaining about. My boss and others aren't saying "leave it slightly unfinished so I have some input and feel in control" to us. The situation you describe is your lack of communicating and/or understanding why your boss wants the hard copies. If my boss simply said "because I prefer paper and it's easier for me and/or regulations/audit trails require it." I'd say, "Okay." Then I'd decide to choose to do as he wishes and work on my merry way. A stupid game or trick would be if you had to stop your momentum to go and ask him every time "What font should it be in" even if you know he "always" says Arial.

UPDATE: I agree, it may be stupid that the email has to be in PDF. If you got to the bottom of a legitimate/reasonable reason as to why or if it just came done to "Because I want it that way" then turn and focus on improving/automating the process as much as possible.

You should leave.

And in future you have to remember the real battle is external, not internal.

I was the one that posted that and I agree with you. It is frustrating to do, but I've just simply started presenting things that are just shy of being finished. Show them early, so they know what's going on and it smooths things out quite a bit.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com