Comment by pooriaazimi | Hacker News Reader

Comment by pooriaazimi | Hacker News Reader

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> The comments also apply a lot to Iran and Iraq.

No, it doesn't. I don't disagree with you on the whole (and certainly appreciate that you are even attempting to understand the issue, which is more than almost anyone does), but like neebz I think your narrative is very simplistic and out of touch with reality.

Islam is not as powerful in the "Islamic world" as you portrayed. Taliban is the exception, not the rule.

I currently live in Tehran, and TBH I personally know less than 8 people (less, because it's been a while since I've talked to a few of them) who are supportive of the government, or in general of Islamic rule. And the number of "religious" (as in, religion is more than something theoretical for them - you believe in Quran, and even though you don't follow it's instructions, the mere belief gets you a place in paradise) people I personally know is probably no more than 20 (most of them friends at college).

The reason for Islamic rule (at least in Iran), is not because they have the support of the people, but simply because they have the money and power. You don't sell hundreds of billions of dollars of crude oil every quarter and get rich and powerful, only to allow to be overthrown! You do everything you can to prevent that.

I hate typing on iPad, so, please read the rest of what I wanted to say in this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4820604

> Islam is not as powerful in the "Islamic world" as you portrayed. Taliban is the exception, not the rule.

Sure. But I was talking mostly about Afghanistan. And the US got 'impatient' with the Shiite/Sunni fighting in Iraq. And the Shiite yelling and screaming, "Death to America" from Iran is difficult to respect.

For the connection between the clerics and the economy in Iran, there was an article in, maybe, 'Forbes' long ago explaining that basically the clerics get a 'cut' of nearly everything in the economy, control who gets to do what, etc.

But, why? That is, why are the Islamic clerics in Iran running the economy with a short leash and running an aggressive military and foreign policy at great cost to their domestic standard of living? Is this just religion? No. But Islam is not just religion and, instead, is often also economic, legal, military, foreign policy, etc. That's not new: The Roman Catholic church was doing that in Europe for hundreds of years. They owned a major fraction of all the farm land in France which has a major fraction of all the good farm land in Western Europe. They built little things like the cathedrals, while the people were living in, what, mud huts? They built the Bishop's Residenz in Würzburg, awash in some of the fanciest art and architecture in all of civilization -- not cheap, and built by citizens in, what, mud huts? The Roman Catholic church was running everything. E.g., to be a king, had to have the Pope tap you on the head or some such. And they were corrupt. So, they had the Protestant Reformation, religious wars, etc. Lots of blood. Finally they learned their lessons about religion. In the US, we borrowed those lessons -- the state will establish no religion; there will be separation of church and state; there will be freedom of religion. Done. Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan still have to learn these old lessons.

Sorry about the Shah; he was a pawn in the Cold War. The US had just finished WWII and, thus, took the Cold War seriously. We spent a LOT of money, and blood, winning the Cold War.

Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, the other Arab oil states, should all do the same thing: Cool down. Relax. Embrace peace. Get the clerics into religion only. No more clerics measuring the lengths of women's skirts or censoring the Internet. Pump oil. Enjoy life. Then work on culture, good government, education, technology, and a strong economy for when the oil runs out. And stop shouting "Death to America". Want nuclear power for electric power, taking the salt out of water and growing vegetables? Fine. Just accept the usual international rules, safeguards, and inspections, and light up your cities and have fountains and big swimming pools of pure water.

All this fighting is over nothing, wasteful, and absurd.

(sorry that this comment is not at all coherent - I have a bad headache right now)

I agree. But the problem is that those who chant "Death to America", like the status quo; they don't want change! If things change (like you said in the second to last paragraph), they'll be out of their jobs and have to do an honest day's work. They don't want that. And do everything they can to prevent that. They "have" to portray US as the "Great Satan", that is behind all their economic, cultural and political mistakes.

It might be strange and unfathomable to you and me, but some people prefer to be King in a wasteland, than to be an ordinary citizen in a country with much greater standard of living. They'd rather be a powerful Mullah in Taliban, than to live normally in a western country. Many of these clerics have spent years studying in European countries, but after finishing college they've left the west and now are living in a shack somewhere in Ghandahar and are the local commander of Taliban. Why? I don't know.

Most of these people won't "cool down, relax or embrace peace", because they are enjoying their shitty lives. And that's the problem, because they have the power to make life miserable for others too. They'd sooner bomb their people (Saddam, Ghadafi, Assad) and ruin their own country, than to "let it go".

There are exceptions like Mubarak or Bin Ali (or Iran's Shah) that fought furiously, but in the end decided not to completely ruin their countries and fled. But not all dictators are like that; some are like Assad.

I hope you are very careful, your commentary is really interesting but I worry for you writing things like what you said about Shah and Assad from there.

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