Comment by yaakov34 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by yaakov34 | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

First, I do realize that rewriting the software stack from the ground up to have only managed code is a huge task. I do think that as an industry, we should set a goal of having at least one server implementation along these lines (where 'set a goal' may mean, say, grants or calls for proposals). Microsoft Research implemented an experimental OS like that, although it probably didn't have all the features a modern OS would need. I don't know if we need a new language, but we do need a huge rethink of the server architecture, and not just a piece-by-piece rewrite, which I think will founder on the interface issues that you mentioned.

Anyway, I am quite realistic about the prospect of my comment having that kind of effect on the industry - I don't suffer from delusions of grandeur. I was aiming the comment more at people who choose C/C++ for no good reason to write a user-level app; that app is nearly certain to have memory use errors, and if it has any network or remote interface, chances are they can be easily exploited. I'd like as many people as possible to understand that they can't expect to avoid such errors, any more than one of the most heavily audited pieces of software avoided them. We have had decades of exploits of this vulnerability, and yet most programmers are oblivious to it, or think only bad programmers are at risk. So just as tptacek goes around telling people not to write their own crypto, I go around telling people - with less authority and effectiveness, unfortunately - not to write C/C++ code unless they really need to.

As for the performance issues forcing OpenSSL to use C, well, we apparently exposed all our secrets in the pursuit of shaving off those cycles. I hope we are happy.

That was a very reasonable response, I can roll with that.

Just one thing: when I brought up talking directly to the hardware, I did not mean just for performance's sake. Avoiding side-channel attacks often requires to have high control over the generated machine code, and that is the primary reason to not do it in higher-level languages (unless they also permit that level of control).

In Java 8 the JVM knows how to compile AES straight through to AES-NI invocations, so the CPU itself is doing the hardware accelerated crypto (in constant time). It's not necessarily the case that higher level languages have to be unsafer: especially not on something like a server where the overhead of JIT compilers get amortized out.

Okay, but what about other crypto algorithms not implemented in hardware? Eventually someone has to figure out how to generate machine code that operates in constant time across code paths, and they need a language that will let them do that.

Do not like the term "C/C++", and especially in this context. Modern C++ makes avoiding this sort of bug as easy as doing so in the "managed" languages already discussed.

This is as much a cultural as a technical problem; C really is in the last chance saloon for this sort of problem, we have the solution to hand, but a strong cadre of developers will still only consider C for this sort of work.

Thank you, this really had to be said. You can do C in C++ (and if you do that, chances are that you're doing it wrong), but you can't do C++ in C. The ugliest and unsafe parts of C++ are invariably those coming almost untouched from C (raw pointers, casts from/to void ptrs, etc). C is close to the machine, but C++ is largely a vertical language where you can do things low-level or high-level (and yes, you can do a lot of interesting things with templates, no matter the bad rap they've got); and most of the current C++ community vastly prefers high-level-like code, for good reasons (for starters, it may be even more performant). A LOT of the sources of unsafe code go away by two simple techniques: use RAII-managed smart pointers instead of raw ones (some of them are as lightweight as a raw pointer), and prefer vector (or other container) to array.

I love C and C++, and each one has its place, but really, they're very different. Almost as much as C++ is to Java, for example.

The problem, and I think this may have been touch on somewhere else in the thread, is that C++ can be really complex to wrap. So embedding a C++ library in another, higher-level language can be very tricky. It often requires wrapping the parts of the API you want to use in C.

I'm fine with low-level libraries being written in C++, but would hope that developers expose a C API around everything.

I don't think this is true. When it comes to copying bytes from a buffer supplied from the network, there isn't a wrapper/manager class that can do this for you. Somewhere down the pipeline some piece of code has to copy the unstructured, variable length byte stream into a manageable data structure. C++ does not give any way to do this beyond the mechanisms available in C.

What you can do is lower the surface area of vulnerability. Low level byte wrangling is kept in a small subset of generic classes and functions. Application logic then only uses the safe interfaces.

Thank you for pointing out that this is not an issue in C++, only in C. There are times when we need C and one can write C code and compile it with a C++ compiler. It's an option to help ease people to modern, idiomatic C++, but please don't lump the two together. C and C++ are two entirely different languages and C++ is much safer.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com