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Comment by patmcc | Hacker News Reader

In Canada, "engineer" is a very specific title that refers to someone who is licensed as a professional engineer, including all the degree requirements, testing, vetting, etc. that go along with that. It's quite similar to "doctor" or "lawyer" in that way.

To call yourself an engineer you need an Engineering degree from a qualified institution (4 or 5 years), at least 2 years of apprenticeship (effectively), and to pass a difficult examination.

They're not typically huge fans of people who haven't done those things calling themselves "sanitation engineers" or "software engineers" instead of "janitors" and "programmers". The argument I usually hear is that it undermines their profession; people can hold the work of an engineer to a particular standard. If suddenly I can say "oh, I'm a software engineer" without anything backing that up, it damages the reputation of "engineer" if I behave poorly.

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As a software "Developer" in Canada who does some work in the USA with the title Software Engineer this is a constant struggle which I seem to constantly have to explain.

Unfortunately some higher ups don't seem to understand what the title engineer means. I have a formal comp sci education and I have heard things like "We can't pay you $x, you aren't even an engineer!".

Walk into an interview with a ring on your pinky (I am serious) and you have an edge on the field.

I don't understand why software devs are in such a bad position in Canada. Or is it just me having a bad experience?

Can you call yourself an Architect? As in, Software Architect? I've found the title to be preferable to Engineer.

actual architects might rightfully slay you, though.

What does a ring on your pinky do?

The iron ring is a Canadian engineering tradition. The original ones were made from iron from a bridge that collapsed and killed a lot of people. It's worn as a reminder of what a few miscalculations or oversights can do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer%27s_Ring

In my state in the US, a person calling themselves an "engineer" has to be licensed.

However, this is only for someone offering engineering services directly to the public. If you do engineering work for an employer, then you enjoy an "industrial exemption." At my workplace, we design stuff, then the design is checked by a third party (such as a regulatory approval outfit), which provides a technical report signed by a licensed engineer.

When people start their own side businesses, they call themselves "technology," "research," and so forth.

From what I've observed, remarkably few engineers do any engineering, such as determining appropriate strengths of structures, etc. Most product design work seems to be done by trial and error.

To add to this, it's not just Canada either. Here in Portugal we have what we call Ordens, not just for engineers but for physicians, lawyers, and other professions. The title of Engineer is also reserved for members of the Ordem, but you only need a degree from an accredited institution.[0] While this does not have much of a legal implication for software engineering, civil engineering projects can only be signed off by members of the Ordem, given the nature of the field.

[0] Lawyers, on the other hand, undergo very extensive examination, and they can only practice law if they are members of the Ordem.

Same goes for Switzerland.

Calling yourself an engineer without a license is like calling yourself a doctor or a lawyer without a license - it's a crime.

Again, software engineers are a little less troubled than say civil Engineers, but you should expect that a potential employer asks to see your dimploma/certification at job interviews (I have been asked that several times, and have asked it from candidates as well).

>> "and to pass a difficult examination."

Well, I wouldn't call it difficult. If you paid attention at all in those years of school and apprenticeship, you'll waltz through the exam without even studying.

Don't you need the same amount of training to be called a software engineer?

Yes and no.

There are universities that offer degrees in Software Engineering here in Canada, and it is officially an engineering accredited degree, but in practice I've never met a P.Eng in software. This is relevant since one of the steps in getting a P.Eng is apprenticeship... and if you have nobody to apprentice under? Then you've got no P.Eng.

I'm sure they exist, but I've never met one.

/Systems control engineering grad, but no P.Eng and I just do code-monkey work.

At my last employer I worked with more than one P.Eng in software development. I've looked at the requirements, and they seem crazy for someone working in software.

Especially when you look at recommendations that on software engineers with a P.Eng should be able to do any sort of software architecture, and only easy-to-follow tasks should be doled out to the other developers. (I can't find supporting links to this now, but have read these proposals in the past)

In Canada, yes. It takes about 4 years of school and 4 years of work experience to become a software engineer. If you call yourself a software engineer without being licensed, you might face a lawsuit from your province's engineering association.

In much of the United States, however, the term is not protected. You may be able to call yourself a software engineer without having any training or experience whatsoever.

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