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Hmm.. I know I can only comment on the Flame, but your trouble with flashing seems odd.

Update sources? git pull; ./repo sync -d

Build from source? ./build.sh

Flash to device? ,/flash.sh

Done. Device reboots into a shiny new version. I couldn't imagine an easier way tbh.

Regarding the rest of your comment: I do have pain points¹. I was a bit disappointed at times. But the progress is good and the current state (git, not what my flame came with, 1.3) looks very, very promising.

1: Keyboard's UX decision to be all caps (a la iPhone), lack of a working xmpp client, lack of a mail client w/ idle (mandatory) and server side search (optional but really helpful) support. Solve these and I need no apps/a different platform.

Lots of negativity here. I juat grabbed the Flame from upstairs again to test a browser feature. Now I remember the one single point of cannot-use.

Keyboard? Usable, merely annoying. XMPP? I.. would even fall back on SMS. Mail client: It works, kinda. Not well, not nice, but it exists.

The single one rant-worthy FxOS thing is the 'search'. It seems they integrate some weird recommendation engine. And that feels like browsing the web, ca. 2000 and no adblock. It even comes with predefined 'categories' (looks like folders, but it will search the web for 'games' for example and list the lowest of the low, the worst corners of the internet, the online scum - as 'apps' on your phone). Hrm.. Damn, that really turns me off every time I give it a try.. Can you rip it out/disable it? Nope.

> It seems they integrate some weird recommendation engine. > And that feels like browsing the web, ca. 2000 and no > adblock. It even comes with predefined 'categories' > (looks like folders, but it will search the web for > 'games' for example and list the lowest of the low, the > worst corners of the internet, the online scum - as > 'apps' on your phone). Hrm.. Damn, that really turns me > off every time I give it a try.. Can you rip it > out/disable it? Nope.

Probably a relevant bug report: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1048771

From version 2.0, disable search suggestions in the Homescreen settings in the Settings app and you'll stop getting recommendations from EverythingMe.

Whoa! I'm glad to hear that (I even was a pita on the fxos IRC channel before about this and that never came up).

You made my day, thank you!

I've been building my ZTE Open since pretty close to its initially release. I also use it as my daily device.

Also, I think this is your 3rd time(in my recent memory) derailing a Firefox OS thread to talk about how there are no phones in stores etc. Are you an astro turfer or are you just really angry at Mozilla for some reason?

I've been seeing these ultra-defensive "Are you an astro turfer or are you just really angry at Mozilla for some reason?"-style responses more and more from the Mozilla community lately, especially when somebody has raised some perfectly good and legitimate points about deficiencies with one of their products.

When discussing Firefox OS, it's perfectly reasonable and relevant to bring up issues surrounding the quality and the ease of acquiring devices that run Firefox OS. These factors have an absolutely massive impact on the experience of everyone involved, from developers to end users, and will directly influence the ability of Firefox OS to capture any substantial share of the market.

Attacking the people who raise awareness of these very real problems with these unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about "astroturfing" or weird accusations of "anger at Mozilla" won't do Mozilla or anyone else any good.

Instead, maybe listen to what people are saying! The limited availability of phones running Firefox OS is causing people problems, and affecting its adoption and usefulness. The devices it has been available on so far have not been very good, even compared to where Android and iOS were years ago. People aren't just making these problems up; they're very real problems! The same goes for problems that people bring up about Firefox, or Rust, or any of Mozilla's other offerings.

Admitting to the existence of these problems, and then resolving them, will have a much more positive impact than attacking anyone who happens to bring them up. The fact that people have to bring them up again and again indicates that they aren't being resolved properly, and that more work is needed.

As I said above, what does any of this have to do with the article at hand? This article was not about adoption or competition. If I were being defensive I would have tried to explain all the things I like about Firefox OS, or talked about things wrong with Android. My issue was that it didn't have anything to do with the article and I have a hard time understanding why anyone would bother.

You do realize that the submission discussion doesn't have to pertain solely to what was in the linked to article, right?

The topic is Firefox OS. Anything having to do with Firefox OS is worth discussing, and is perfectly valid discussion. That includes its problems. That includes how it is (or is failing to) compete with established players like iOS and Android. That includes the sorry state of the devices it comes with.

Deviation is perfectly fine. The point of the discussion is to share ideas. It's not to engage in mindless affirmation of whatever the linked-to article may say.

>I've been building my ZTE Open since pretty close to its initially release. I also use it as my daily device.

I bought a ZTE Open off of ebay back in April. My Nexus 4 broke in July. I have been using the ZTE Open as my daily device since.

I built from source (Boot2Gecko 1.4.0.0-prerelease) and, from my experience:

- Sometimes when I open an MMS message and click the back button, my phone reboots - If I open a content-heavy webpage or app the app will force close - Sometimes when I'm scrolling through the gallery app my phone freezes - Sometimes my handset earpiece doesn't work and I have to make calls on speakerphone - Sometimes the camera app freezes after taking a picture

Now, I'm not sure if these are issues with the ZTE Open's specs, the state of the build I flashed, or the method in which I flashed it, but those are my daily struggles using the phone.

That being said, as a phone (phone calls + sms + mms) it works, mostly.

I haven't been keeping it updated though. I should build the most recent and flash it soon.

As stated elsewhere, please do try a recent vsrsion. 2.x changed a lot for me.

> Also, I think this is your 3rd time(in my recent memory) derailing a Firefox OS thread to talk about how there are no phones in stores etc. Are you an astro turfer or are you just really angry at Mozilla for some reason?

I'm sorry but he's right. The OS is not good, the phones are not powerful, they are barely available and because they are web based they have no unique selling point over any other platform.

You can get more powerful Android phones for cheaper and they run more stuff.

But what does any of that have to do with the process of designing and developing Firefox OS? You also just kind of seem like an astroturfer. Android was not mentioned anywhere in that article as far as I could tell. Why are you posting that here?

Firefox OS doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's facing some very strong competition from Android, iOS, BlackBerry OS, and numerous other mobile operating systems and platforms.

It makes absolutely no sense to consider Firefox OS by itself. It needs to be considered within the larger context. Unfortunately, like others have pointed out, Firefox OS is not competing very well against the alternatives at this point.

It currently provides a worse experience than its competitors in pretty much every way. I don't think this is something that can be denied. Mozilla and the Firefox OS community will need to face these problems.

And these "astroturfer" accusations from you are kind of weird. Pointing out obvious flaws with software and hardware does not mean that the people pointing them out are being paid by Apple, or Google, or any other company or organization. It probably just means that they'd like to see these problems resolved, for the sake of Firefox OS and its potential success.

This is an article about designing and developing for Firefox OS. This is not an article about competing with Android and others.

Discussion about which is a better option for the consumer is a very valid discussion and is important to the long term survival of the platform. But, in my opinion, it just doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.

It's like if there was an article about a release of the next version of Android and someone came in taking about how the smaller subset of target screen sizes in iOS make it a better platform to design for. Its a valid discussion, but just doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.

The "astroturfer" comment is because I can't see any sane reason, beyond self interest or possibly just to troll, why anyone would bother to hop into a thread and just say Android is better when there was no mention about Android in the article at hand.

> But what does any of that have to do with the process of designing and developing Firefox OS? [...] Android was not mentioned anywhere in that article

The thread (if you have missed it) was about Firefox OS devices and how a person was recommending against buying a device. I agree with this sentiment and was mentioning that there are cheaper Android devices which are a better purchase.

> You also just kind of seem like an astroturfer.

Take off your tinfoil hat. Just accept that some people do not like Firefox OS or the devices.

This thread was originally about someone telling their experience with the phone that Firefox OS is developed and tested against. This was an article about developing Firefox OS which is done on the device discussed in the start of the thread. That is relevant information to someone who might be interested in getting involved in designing and developing Firefox OS which was what the article was about.

No where in the start of this thread or in the article did it involve which system is the best, nor did it ever even mention Android, iOS etc etc.

100% spot on. Too many features missing. The flashing procedure is problematic as well (for the ZTE "open" C you need a custom patch found in a bug report, and you have to be extremely carefull not to brick the device.)

I purchased a ZTE Open C just to try out Firefox and the internet browsing experience. You can't change tabs unless you scroll all the way to the top, otherwise the address bar is hidden. Needless to say, browsing becomes very taxing if you're viewing even moderately large pages.

> You can't change tabs unless you scroll all the way to the top, otherwise the address bar is hidden.

This is very common feedback and I assure you it hasn't fallen on deaf ears.

From version 2.1 the address bar will show as soon as you start to scroll up and you'll be able to manually trigger it from the statusbar as well (see the UI mockups in the blog post). You will also be able to switch between browser windows by swiping from the edge of the screen. After using this for a few weeks I really miss it when I use Android!

Funny you should mention that. It is the top thread right now on the dev-gaia mailing list.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.gaia/QP7...

Note that this thread discusses the "I actually want to scroll to the top" use case, which might take a while for long pages. People in that estimate that this is a Common Thing you want to do.

The GP complains about being _required_ to scroll to the top to reach the address bar/the tabs, which is plain wrong (but might be a case of bad discoverability?).

That is confusing. The behavior is similar/equal to the Android Firefox: Scroll down, address bar goes off-screen. Want it back? Scroll a small amount up, albeit rapidly. Think 'pull down' on the content.

Did you mias that (we can argue about whether that's intuitive) or does that plain not work for you? Scrolling back to the top should definitely be unnecessary..

Works just fine for me (typing on Android, in Aurora).

> Want it back? Scroll a small amount up, albeit rapidly.

Doesn't work. AFAIK, there isn't a way to show the address bar unless you scroll all the way up to the top. I'm aware that Firefox on Android has the behaviour you mention.

Also, I haven't yet found a way to quickly scroll up to the top of a page.

Apologies. I was absolutely certain that this would work, did work. After your comment I grabbed the Flame from upstairs and .. actually tested it.

Yep, seems to be missing here as well (2.1 prerelease). Sorry for speaking first, testing later.

That behavior of Firefox on Android is just plain stupid and broken, even when it's working.

It's another great example of how the Firefox developers have added in functionality that just makes the browsing experience less efficient or more confusing, without any real benefit. Getting a sliver more of screen space just isn't worth the inconvenience this "feature" brings, especially on larger mobile devices.

Disabling it via 'Settings' -> 'Display' -> 'Scroll title bar' was the first thing I had to do when trying out Firefox on Android, and that was just to bring it up to a minimal level of usability.

It's not like Firefox is alone in that behavior, don't both Chrome and iOS Safari work the same?

Yes, Chrome on Android does appear to be broken in a similar way. I'm not sure about Safari on iOS, though. Regardless, two or even three of them being broken in the same way doesn't mean that they aren't broken. The state of being broken in independent of how many different systems are broken.

You don't say what country you're in. If it's easy to ship the phone to UK (preferred) or US (I'll get it eventually) then get in touch.

You don't have any contact details in your profile, so it's not possible to message you privately.

(Or if anyone wants to give me a Firefox phone I'd be immensely grateful)

My app crashed on real device. There are some differences.

how can you be contacted? i have a few things that work ok in an emulator but i'd like to try (not regularly) on a real, constrained device.