Comment by chaostheory | Hacker News Reader

Comment by chaostheory | Hacker News Reader

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I'm guessing that there are a couple reasons for this (and I could be wrong):

1. Economic factors: The salary man is slowly going away and so are the institutions that revolve around him such as mainstream Japan's definition of a family.

2. The younger generation wants more freedom from a patriarchal society; in particular women. On a whole younger Japanese women are not content with being trapped as a housewife. (It doesn't help that women older than 25 are derogatorily referred to as 'Christmas cake', something past its due date of 12/25 that no one wants.) Younger males are also no longer content with being trapped as a corporate slave who lives mainly for his corporation and functions mainly as an ATM for his family that he rarely sees.

3. Xenophobia: Even though the younger generation is more tolerant, on a whole Japan is a racist country. For example, unless you have Japanese ancestry it is near impossible to get Japanese citizenship. This has larger consequences such as really low immigration numbers and generally, non-existent integration of immigrants into mainstream society (yes there are always exceptions depending on which part of Japan we are talking about). In Japan's defense most of Asia is also racist, but Japan just takes it to another level.

It's not clear that (2) is true. Support for the idea that "the husband should work outside and the wife should care for the household" remains surprisingly strong in Japan (people are roughly evenly split between for and against), even among younger generations. Actually, according to the latest Cabinet Office survey, support is stronger among 20-39 year olds than 40-59 year olds (see [0]), and only a few percentage points lower among women vs. men.

Similarly, a majority of respondents of the Japanese General Social Survey think that "in case the husband's income is sufficient, it is better for the wife not to work". But economic realities make such lifestyle choices difficult. For example, when asked what level of household income would be sufficient for them to consider getting married, a plurality of Japanese women cite a figure of around ¥500k net per month [1], which is around the limit of the top quartile of household incomes, and way above what unmarried men typically make on their own.

As for (3), I'm not particularly interested in debating whether "Japan is a racist country", but getting Japanese citizenship is far from being impossible. In fact, the rejection rate of formally submitted naturalization applications is about 1% (consistent over at least the past decade, see e.g. [2]).

[0]: http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/honkawa/2410.html [1]: http://jgss.daishodai.ac.jp/english/research/monographs/jgss... [2]: http://www.turning-japanese.info/2012/05/10-years-of-natural...

I don't particularly trust survey results conducted by the Japanese Gov for the following reasons:

1. Saving face is the most important thing in Japanese society. Based on history, Japan's government is not above molding things like survey results to fit their agendas like the preservation of Japan's nuclear family or hunting endangered whales and other fish

2. In psychology, we're aware that people don't necessarily do what they say. I would guess that this is even more true of Japanese society at large. I wouldn't be surprised if many respondents merely gave answers based on what they felt people expected. Japanese society is a polite society. It is less direct and less truthful when you compare it to other cultures.

Of course I could always be proven wrong.

Some other factors:

1. Wealth: despite long term economic malaise, Japan is still one of the richest countries. Rich people tend to have fewer children. Japan's GINI coefficient is also a lot lower compared to, say, the US, which means the wealth is spread around a lot more. That means that a comparatively greater proportion have a high log-wealth than in the US, and would thus be less inclined to have kids.

2. Lack of opportunity for moms: day care is expensive (no immigrants to do it) and in short supply. If you can't get into daycare, you basically have no choice but to stop working. A lot of women don't see this as being worth the sacrifice. Here is a recent Planet Money article on this: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/07/19/203372076/will-rob...

The post-WW2 boom is dying off. Literally. Japan has smaller land area than California (a lot of it is mountains, too) and has 125mm people. They don't need more population growth. (not that you were implying they do, just saying)

I didn't say that they needed population growth. I'm just giving the reasons for Japan's population decline.

I didn't say you did. Sorry if that's what I seemed to be implying. I'll edit.

Also, in my travels, Koreans were about 1000x less welcoming to me than Japanese were. Koreans literally laughed in my face when I spoke anything in Korean to them. Japanese people would get a huge smile on their face when I spoke Japanese to them. Anecdotes and whatnot. :)

Well I did mention that most of Asia is racist right? (there's only one or two countries that aren't - on a whole)

I can explain the reasons behind the different receptions you received. In Japan, caucasians of European descent are largely seen as an exotic novelty; you will be treated nicely on the surface, but you are not expected (or really allowed generally speaking) to fully integrate into Japanese society. You're just a tourist or English teacher on a temporary stay. Koreans don't have this view of caucasians (though I don't know anything about whether Korean society as a whole allows other ethnicities to integrate) also imo Korea is the equivalent of Italy in Asia

Thanks for the explanation. Japan blew away my expectations while Korea completely failed them (after studying Korean with a private tutor for six months, no less... what a waste). Taiwan seems not xenophobic at all unless you're a mainlander. I have a black friend who went there and said everyone was just as welcoming to him as they were to me.

Your problem with Korean might have been pronunciation. Korean is a bit harder to pronounce correctly than most people think (and realize, e.g. due to the McGurk effect), especially when learning it at an adult age, when the brain has become quite bad at distinguishing and mimicking new phonemes. It can be quite genuinely hard for Koreans to understand a Westerner speaking Korean correctly, even if you believe there's no difference between how you are pronouncing and they are. The confused looks you get are not mean, then, but just honest.

And a lot of Koreans get really excited when Westerners speak any Korean at all and will praise your Korean. What can be frustrating though is that they will often try to use English to speak to you even when you tried to use Korean, instead of using Korean as well. This can also seem rude/belittling but isn't really - often they're just excited to get to use English.

Thanks for the reply and mentioning the McGurk effect. Really interesting!

Hmm, my teacher's husband said my pronunciation was excellent. I downplayed the comment politely, and he said, "No, I'm serious. You have the best pronunciation of any of our students." I'm not really in a position to judge, though. I just copied the pronunciation/phrases/tone from men speaking in k-dramas I used when learning.

None of the Koreans I tried to talk to in SK could speak English, even the young people. Perhaps they were just too afraid to try? The stares/glares also felt very unwelcoming compared to Taiwan and Japan, too. It's the only time in my life I have actually felt unwelcome somewhere.

I should be clear that I'm definitely not trying to invalidate your experiences, because I don't really have any that compare, not having visited Korea just yet.

I live in Germany, and the Koreans I meet here (we have a decently-sized local ethnicity, a multi-story culture center (http://www.kulturkorea.org/de/) and a significant Korean expat community (http://berlinreport.com/)) are more likely to be attuned to and interested in dealing with Westerners, I guess. And any Korean acquaintances I've made online (IRC, Hello Talk, etc.) are in connection with language learning activities, so they're probably similar.

The pronunication theory is based on my own experiences learning the language though (I e.g. found distinguishing and correctly producing some of the tense consonants vs. the basic versions quite tricky initially) and from Koreans admitting that it can be really hard to understand Westerners trying to pronounce their language.

I think the above sort of hints at something though: If you're a Westerner curious about Asia, it's probably a good idea to try and make contact with natives who similarly have an appetite for relating to those foreign to them. No doubt there are Koreans not interested in dealing with Westerners; there are people like that everywhere. Doesn't mean you can't find your tribe somewhere in a 50 million people population, though. It's not like you like everyone back home either, probably. Gotta expect the same anywhere you go.

> Well I did mention that most of Asia is racist right?

I thought only white people can be racist.

If you're a liberal, yes.

It's a lot easier to immigrate to Japan than to the US. Getting a work visa to Japan takes about a month or less. Converting that into a spouse visa (if you want) takes a couple of visits to the immigration and family record offices.

It is not near impossible to get Japanese citizenship, but you are technically required to renounce other current citizenships. Permanent residency is a more attainable goal especially for technical workers in Japan.

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