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Comment by zedpm | Hacker News Reader

Very nice analysis of the "boom." Anyone who regularly buys single malt Scotch has observed the strong upward movement of bottle prices in the last few years. With the growing visibility of world whisk(e)y, I'll be interested to see if the Japanese and other producers help moderate the price of Scotch or if they join in the upward trend.

On a somewhat related note, it's interesting to see how small and simple some of these world-famous distilleries are. I visited Islay last summer and toured Ardbeg, Laphroaig, Lagavulin, Kilchoman, Bowmore, Bruichladdich, and a few others. Bowmore is definitely the Walmart of the bunch, while Kilchoman was more like a mom-and-pop operation.

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We were in the Highlands and Speyside this summer and did some tours as well.

It's worth knowing that most of the famous distilleries roll up to one of a couple mega-corps --- Diageo, Ricard, Suntory. Lots of those distilleries are small operations. It's the same in the US: the best known, best regarded bourbons are almost uniformly owned by giant companies.

There's an interesting comparison between the tours at, say, Aberlour (a mega-corp-owned large-scale distillery) and Benromach (an independent small-scale distillery). I'd rather tour the small operations. But honestly, I'd (mostly) rather drink the products of the larger ones.

(A warning: I'm more inclined to nerd out and even less qualified to hold forth on this topic than I am on criminal law or cryptography. Sorry!)

Busloads of tourists rolled into Talisker (Diageo) on the August day we visited. We sat in the Talisker 'experience' while waiting for our time slot.

After an hour we were ready and got taken around by a suited guide with gilded lapel badge. She took us through the usual history, distillation process and then to the tasting: a nice range of their ages and brands.

A slick, well-packaged distillery.

A few days later we arrived on Mull and toured the Tobermory Distillery. Small and cute just like the town. The tweeded master distiller had so many stories, transporting us back through its varied history.

That history sure made the dram taste great.

Looking forward to making it onto Islay next time.

Slàinte!

Islay is amazing. If you make it there, consider staying at The Bowmore House[0]. Andrew and Alison are wonderful hosts, the breakfasts are marvelous, and the rooms are great too.

[0] http://www.thebowmorehouse.co.uk/

If you go to Islay, it might be worth going to Jura that has it's own distillery, interesting scenery (if you like fantastically rough coastlines and raised beaches), the house where Orwell wrote 1984 and at the north end between Jura and Scarba the infamous Gulf of Corryvreckan with its whirlpool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Corryvreckan

Tobermory, of course, being owned by Distell, itself a pretty big spirits firm. :)

The big difference I noticed between big and small distilleries was automation. A large-scale distillery still has a blinged-out spirit safe, but the LCD screen showing the stats on the stills is more important, because it's what's making all the decisions. The Benromach people were doing all that stuff by hand and eyeball.

On the other hand: I'll probably drink 4 bottles of Balvenie for ever 1 bottle of Benromach I drink. I'll let you know when I manage to finish the first bottle of Benromach I bought. It's good stuff, but the big distilleries can produce stuff that's better.

Better is all very subjective :) Both Balvenie and Benromach are produced by Scottish companies, so I have a nationalistic soft spot for them :)

People like to turn their noses up at the mega-brands in Whisk(e)y, Wine and Beer, but the reality is they do help distribution. It used to be seeing any Glen or Guiness made a bar worth attending. Now we have (pay for) an abundance of choices.

I recently came across a blog post[0] that examined where U.S. whisk(e)ys were actually produced. Turns out many of the top-shelf brands aren't actually produced in the manner which they are marketed. My impression, at least among bourbons, is that there are several brands that, while owned by mega-corps, still control their production in a mom-and-pop manner.

[0] http://recenteats.blogspot.com/p/the-complete-list-of-americ...

The best known top-shelf brands that fit that description are Pappy, WhistlePig, and Black Maple Hill. They're good products, but they're all bottlings of someone else's spirit. The term for that kind of brand is "NDP".

NDP practices are most notorious in American rye, where the majority of products come from a single ex-Seagrams distillery in Indiana called MGPI. Templeton is an NDP infamous for carefully concealing the fact that they're reselling commodity rye spirit. Chuck Cowdery, whose blog is well worth a read, calls them a "Potempkin Distillery".

But there are a lot of top-shelf brands that don't fit that description at all. The Buffalo Trace antiques --- Thomas Handy, for instance --- are genuine serious products. Of course, they trace back to Sazerac, which is a pretty big company; just look at all the stuff Barton Brands (also owned by Sazerac) sells.

I heard Templeton was one of the most egregious of the bunch, but didn't realize Pappy was similar. These days, it seems worth it to spend my money at a local distillery (Wigle Whiskey), where they go from grains to finished product in the same facility.

Pappy and Templeton are both NDPs, but Pappy is a "good" NDP, and Templeton is a poster child for evil NDPs. Among other details: Templeton resells MGPI rye, to which they add flavorant, while Pappy is a special label and aging of KBD bourbon.

That said: don't pay good money for Pappy. It's hugely overrated. A $25 bottle of Willett will give you a substantially similar spirit (also KBD), and one I like better than Pappy.

Unfortunately: the local, small operations tend to produce inferior products. Whiskey is a very difficult business to get good at. Among other things, it seems to be the case that you need to use gigantic barrels to produce top-quality whiskey, which favors companies that have a direct pipeline to large numbers of consumers.

Chuck Cowdery has a pretty good list of cheap bourbons you can't go wrong with, including Very Old Barton, Old Forester, Jim Beam Black Label, and Old Grand-Dad. I've been working my way through his cheap bourbon list and it's been pretty great.

Unless something has changed dramatically recently Pappy is not KBD juice. It is a wheated buffalo trace. That said, I agree that it is hugely overrated, but old whiskey is all overrated right now. If you are looking for a similar spirit I'd recommend the Weller bottles.

As for the cheap bourbons, be careful, several have changed recipes recently or more troubling done away with their traditional age statements in shady ways (I'm looking at you Very Old Barton). Due to the demand for whiskey right now, anything with any age at all is being snapped up for NDP sale. Leaving the bottom shelf in worse shape than it used to be.

Not quite on the Pappy being BT, the younger stuff in the line is, and I believe current thoughts are the 15 is blending BT with some of the "ultra aged" Stitzel Weller stock that Julian Van Winkle started the brand with and the older stock is all SW.

For inexpensive stuff look for Bottled in Bond (legally at least 4 years old, 100 proof, single distilling season). Still some real gems there, mostly from the good folks at Heaven Hill.

Yeah didn't want to complicate the discussion with the Pappy conjecture, but more and more people are coming around to the idea that the SW stuff is gone.

I know that the WL Weller 19 year that BT bottled years ago was my favorite of all time and the price for that has become obscene.

Right. I've only really been into whiskey the last 3-4 years, so really just before the boom. Prices have gotten nuts and the availability is worse for all the age stated stuff, and especially the wheaters. 12 year and old antique Weller used to be reasonably priced high quality go-tos, now they're treated like gold and hoarded by shopkeeps and buyers as "basically pappy."

Looking forward to the general public moving on to whatevers next in the alcohol world. Fingers crossed it'll be tequila as that will never interfere with my tastes :)

Try a few good tequilas or mezcals. I frequently use them to "hedge" the inflated prices of whiskey. The good ones are as different from the high volume stuff as good scotch is (and maybe more so).

perhaps I'll do that, I find I'm pretty picky with my spirits, if offered I'll sip but in general I don't really care for scotch (peaty or not, the "sharpness" of barley turns me off), and really not a fan of the flavor of tequila at all.

D'oh: I got my Willett and my Weller crossed, and my Pappy/Buffalo Trace and Black Maple/KBD crossed as well.

If you like the whiskey at your local producer thats great. Most of the local producers have to take short cuts over traditional aging processes because they cost so much. Whether those short cuts matter is a source of big debate.

My understanding is they buy the unaged rye then "flavor" it by aging it in what ever wood casks they decide. So, if you lined up all the various MGPI derived brands, they would all taste different. Similar to Vodka. At the "magic of vodka" moment they are all the same. Add pure ethyl alcohol (which at this point whether it's potato or grain based is meaningless) to water and get slightly less vodka. Then add a unique flavor to make your brand. I like Bulleit rye, personally. Sure it's MGPI derived but it tastes decent and at $20+ a bottle it's a good day to day rye...

Potato, wheat, rye, and other vodka bases are definitely distinguishable. It's not 100% ethanol post distillation. Vodka just takes a lot less of the heads and tails.

Some of the production facilities used in the whisky industry are rather "industrial" - there are a few large industrial malting facilities that supply malt to large number of distilleries including some of the more upmarket brands.

NB When I was a student in the 1980s I used to work in the summers at one of the large industrial maltings.

I don't know how I feel about this. Balvenie famously does their own maltings, but then Balvenie is one of the largest Scotch brands in the world. On the other hand, you look at the smaller distilleries and realize that there's no way they can be doing that kind of work themselves, and you wonder how much impact doing ones own malting has on the final product, as opposed to designing a mash bill, controlling yeast, making cuts, and (most importantly) selecting and aging in barrels.

I remember the chemist who ran the lab at the maltings joking about the "romance" of "throwing another peat on the fire" when it reality the analysis was all done very carefully and scientifically with gas chromatography being used to control peat levels.

[NB The automated titration machine they used as a reference for nitrogen levels was quite scary - all flames and concentrated acids being squirted about.]

I had a different experience on the bourbon trail. Both the tour and tasting at heaven hill were so-so, but both the tour and product at Willett, around the corner, were awesome.

I certainly think the Japanese single malts are already giving them a run for their money. Hard to say, "already" when they've been making good product for a century or so... but this year was a pretty good reminder:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/11/05...

Although, I don't know about moderating prices. Finding a bottle of the Yamazaki has not been easy (particularly at a reasonable price).

EDIT: the Diageo special release pricing has gotten almost insulting.

EDIT: yup, tpacek, couldn't agree more. The Robert Parker of Whisky, to be taken with a grain of salt... but I'd say it's at least correlated with quality and an indicator of where the market is headed.

If you buy into the whole Jim Murray ranking thing. The fact is, everything at the top of his list is amazing (and Japan has consistently produced top-quality single malt), but the distribution of scores is pretty arbitrary.

The problem, of course, is that the rest of the market tends to treat Murray's ratings as objective fact, so, for instance, when he declared Thomas Handy the best whiskey in the world a few years back, bottles became impossible to find. So maybe it's a blessing that Scotland has been demoted. :)

I think interest in other Spirits particularly Rum may begin to suck in those who would previously have stuck with Scotch.

Rum enthusiast here. While the rum market has been experiencing a small boom in recent years, especially at the high end, very few consumers think of rum as a fine, sipping drink. Low- to midrange mixing rums still account for the bulk of the market, and, barring a few trendy aberrations here and there, they probably will for years to come. Most people think of rum as a commodity, a mixing component. Scotch, on the other hand, has a long history as a standalone drink, and as an aspirational luxury good.

What you're seeing in the Scotch boom isn't the sudden uplift of a formerly humble drink; it's the discovery and rediscovery of a noble drink by new markets. When and where rum has seen boutique, high-end mini-markets, they are usually driven by the marketing efforts of a firm or two, and they are usually impermanent. Even these usually promote rum as a mixing component -- which is a good way to remind people to consider rum as a vital component of the liquor cabinet, but not a great way to get them to appreciate it.

As far as I remember blended Scotch still makes up the majority of the Scotch market. So in principle I don't see them as being that different. What I do see is that you can buy good aged rum from good distillers at cheaper than the equivalent Scotch.

Now it's all a matter of taste but when it comes down to it, would you rather have a cheaper good quality rum or an average/poor scotch for the same price?

Scotch distillers are increasingly putting out non age statement bottlings of younger Scotch for prices that they once charged for 10 or 12 year matured Scotch, I think if they continue to do that those who've developed a taste for good spirit will look elsewhere and find Rum which is a very handy replacement.

Blended Scotch is far and away the majority of the market, but I'd imagine most people still drink their blended Scotch unmixed. On the rocks, maybe. But not mixed. (I could be wrong about that, and don't want to speak from any presumed authority here.)

I think premium rums are becoming more common, but part of the reason why they are considered cheap mixing components is the selfimposed: X years old scotch means "the youngest component is X", while X years old rum generally means "the oldest component is X".

In fairness, I think the main reason rum is considered a mixing component is because it's been that way for 200-something years. You'd have to go back to the Age of Sail to find an era when rum was widely considered a standalone drink. (And even then, it was often watered down or mixed with something.)

The global rum market is dominated by a handful of huge beverage companies, all of whom have historically marketed their rum as a mixer. The two forces working to counter this image are the small-batch importers and the internet rum-aficionado community. In time, they may prove successful.

I will say this much, at least: there has never been a wider selection of great rum so readily available in the United States in my lifetime. Anyone whose opinion of rum has been colored by the paint thinner that Bacardi puts out should consider a bottle of Diplomatico, or aged Flor de Cana. The prices and quality go up from there, but for my money, those are some very good and very approachable sipping rums.

I've seen more interest in other whisk(e)y variants, in my experience. Rye and bourbon in particular have a lot to offer these days in terms of high quality, interesting bottles. Templeton Rye[0] in particular is a great sipping whiskey I turn to when I'm not in the mood for scotch.

But you're right that there is a whole, wide world of high quality drinks to explore. High-end rum, tequila, even gin have a lot to offer in terms of slow, thoughtful consumption. [0] http://www.templetonrye.com/home/

Templeton is evil. Try Few, if you're looking for a similarly-priced Rye that isn't an MGPI product, or if you're looking for the same juice as Templeton at a more reasonable price, try High West or Bulleit.

You should avoid Templeton just because of the douchebag factor.

By "same juice" are you referring to the same (MGPI) stock? It's a bit unclear on the first read of your comment, but I've found High West to be a nice Rye so I'd certainly agree with the suggestion.

Yes, High West and Bulleit are MGPI. My understanding is that by "same juice," he meant "also from MGPI," but at a lower markup.

Thanks. Reading through the user's posts, they seem to know the topic but I just wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly.

My business partner is originally from the Templeton, IA area. Apparently there are still private citizens making "real" Templeton rye illegally in their barns. He had some over the holidays and reported it to be spicier than the TR brand whisky.

TR is a bit disingenuous, but not evil. It's a decent tasting product run by a small company in the middle of nowhere; certainly it was damn near impossible to get rye a few years ago and TR's marketing helped to change that. But like most whiskies, take the marketing with a demijohn of salt.

+1 to Willett.

Willett is good but as it was pointed out to me upthread I had my signals crossed with Weller. :)

Regarding Templeton, here's a decent reported source:

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2014/10/templeton-tale-gets...

You weren't wrong that KBD makes Willett, though. Elmer T. Lee and Eagle Rare, both very good, also come from Buffalo Trace, although they're apparently not wheated like the Weller.

I read several years ago that Templeton bought its rye from a distillery in Indiana and it wasn't much of a secret that it wasn't distilled in Iowa. So, maybe not the MGP name was known, but the name is kind of meaningless.

I think the big problem with Templeton is that most of the NDP brands tell a good story, and discourage people from looking too deeply from where they came, Templeton is getting litigious with it.

Further, they are walking a very tight line with regard to what additives they are using. In some places they are adamant that they are following "traditional" processes, and in others they happily invoke the additive to side step allegations of fraud/false advertising.

Personally, I have no problem with NDP brands, and think that the mixing of the various ingredients goes a long way to determining the quality of the final product. So even coming from a distillery in Indiana is not a problem (or even having a compelling Col. Sanders character sell your sauce).

But Templeton really does take it to another level. Not sure if that level is "evil" or not. But certainly douchbaggy.

Interesting and disappointing news regarding Templeton. I'm going through some of the reading on the subject now. Thanks for the suggestions for alternatives.

Another great rye you might try is "Rittenhouse Rye 100". It's great neat or with a splash of water/1 cube or in an Old Fashioned (I always use rye in my old fashioned's).

Why do you say that? There are some significant differences between many single-malt scotches and a rum.

Well, as someone that drinks both, there's also a lot in common. Obviously the peating & the resulting tie to the terroir is a little less important, but there are Solera process rums that are top tier spirits for 10-20% of the cost corresponding quality single malt scotches.

Obviously a scotch drinker is going to want to stick to scotch, but there are very fine examples of other distilled beverages (rum, cognac/armanac, bourbon, anejo tequila/mescal) that are going to be as complicated on the palate for fractions of the price. At some point people will switch. The reason I haven't, honestly, is that there are still "bargains" in middle market scotch... it's not clear that intrinsic quality is driving market, as opposed to scarcity or marketing.

EDIT: sorry, got back to this thread a bit late. I echo the other commenter on the Ron Zacapa 23 or Centennario. That was specifically what I had in mind, and is a great launching point for exploring them. https://www.masterofmalt.com/samples/ will let you get 30ml samples for a modest markup and is a great way to try a lot w/o ruining your finances or liver. Astonishingly high end single malts available that way, too (I have no incentive to promote them whatsoever)

I'll have to hunt down a Solera-process rum then. Can you recommend a particular brand?

As for cognac, bourbon and tequila, I can definitely see your point there.

Ron Zacapa Solera 23 is probably the most common and certainly the one I see 'in the wild' the most often. It's a mega-corp rum (Diageo) and bit looked down upon by many rum snobs, but it's pretty good and a decent enough place to start in my opinion, and you shouldn't have much trouble finding a pub with a bottle behind the bar if you just want a taste rather than buying a whole bottle.

I quite like the Ron Zacapa but someone coming from the whiskey world should know that the 23 refers to the oldest rum in the blend and not the youngest like you find in most whiskey. They are quite upfront about this on their labelling, but it did take away some of the "how did this price descrepency happen?" for me.

Very true, just to muddy the waters further however bear in mind that maturation generally happens at a faster pace in hotter climates which rum producing countries generally are.

This might just be the booze snob in me talking, but I think Ron Zacapa 23 was significantly better up to about 5 years or so ago. It's still good, but I think increased demand/production has resulted in an inferior product compared to what it used to be.

Try the Santa Teresa 1796. Highly recommended and still my favorite after many years. I'm biased though, since it's Venezuelan (and I am too).

Try Dictador 12. Shouldn't be too expensive and is widely considered to be excellent.

Both have long histories of production (both industries have distillers which are centuries old). Both mature their product in Oak casks. Both are very popular drinks in their blended/cheaper form so there's a wide variety of people out there who do drink rum just not the better quality aged rum. 20 years ago most people drank blended Scotch, the boom in single malt has been a relatively recent thing, I see no reason why Rum shouldn't follow a similar path.

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