I responded to the idea behind a specific statement, I did not make a generalized observation about the guideline.
I even quoted the idea I was responding to. Perhaps you should practice some of that charitable interpretation.
I even quoted the idea I was responding to. Perhaps you should practice some of that charitable interpretation.
I also think you misunderstood the point the person was making with that statement:
It's harder to make helpful critical statements when people let their feathers get ruffled, decide to treat you as a hater, and then disregard your comment. (I think that exact behavior is in play in this series of sub threads).
I don't think your original comment should have been downvoted due to disagreement the way it has been so I am upvoting it to balance that out.
> I also think you misunderstood the point the person was making with that statement: It's harder to make helpful critical statements when people let their feathers get ruffled, decide to treat you as a hater, and then disregard your comment. (I think that exact behavior is in play in this series of sub threads).
And I gave a reason for dismissing people that had nothing to do with ruffled feathers.
An observation I like to make to people in politics.
Do you know why those people do those things with absolutely no regard for how you feel about it? Because you're so biased against whatever group they fall into that absolutely nothing they do is going to be ok. You'll dismiss the good, you'll amplify the bad.
So why wouldn't they dismiss you?
The same can be said of the internet. There are too many idiots who think having an opinion is enough. I will not waste my time on them.
Does that make me closed minded? So. Fucking. Be it, I'm closed minded. I learned that from experience.
Here's an example: homeopathy. If someone believes in it, then you can give counter statements without calling them an idiot. You can explain that you believe it's without basis through reasoned argument, and you absolutely should show respect for the other person. You don't even have to respect their opinion - heck I have zero respect for homeopathy - but that other person might have reasons for their stance.
At the end of the day, Hacker News works because it allows the free flow of ideas through discussion. HN knows that being wrong and failing are important to innovation because there are so many things that are non-intuitive that you need to give people space to think and act outside the box.
To allow for innovation needs robust discussion where you freely share your wild and unorthodox thoughts in a safe environment. A safe environment is one where you invite criticism and allow others to point out the flaws of your ideas, but you do so in the knowledge that they are doing it out of respect to try to help you improve your theories, plans or projects - not to treat you like a complete idiot not worthy of any respect. On the other side of the coin, you should be able to freely and constructively criticise without fear that you will be penalised by the community and that your criticism is given to help the other party limit their failure, or think of ways of improving their idea by ironing out flaws.
In essence, when you call another person an idiot, or treat them as such, you break the very model that makes HN successful. So with the greatest of respect, if you can't get your point or view across without denigrating the other party, I don't think HN was or ever will be the forum for you.
That may be useful, but that isn't HN. If your comment is positive about Javascript (which is actually a good language once you get to know it) or SPAs that comment is very likely to be downvoted.
If you even find a place that actually allows discussion of unortodoc views, please tell me.
Maybe you should consider if the signals being sent your way mean what you think they mean.
The issue is one of using a word that can be applied to both sides of the argument. I was quite clear from the very beginning. This is about me not wasting time on people. It has nothing to do with respect or disrespect.
Take ZenoArrow, for example. Why have I chosen to completely ignore him whilst seemingly engaging with others in this thread? Is it because he's been extra mean compared to everyone else?
Because it isn't enough to simply disagree. In ZenoArrow's case it's the arrogance of his thinking he can manipulate me into whatever direction he wants to go.
Why in the world would you bother engaging someone who is smarter than you are? It's a waste of time for all parties involved.
> To allow for innovation needs robust discussion where you freely share your wild and unorthodox thoughts in a safe environment.
You say this in a response to a subcomment of a flagged comment that attacked no person, nor idea. It simply stated that I dismiss people readily, and will continue to do so. Is that the sort of safe place for wild and unorthodox ideas, or is it only the wild and unorthodox ideas that everyone else has that's acceptable?
Your first flagged comment says:
> I'm quick to write off people and I won't apologize for it. I have better things to do with my time than to give everyone the same amount of time and respect.
So people think it's about respect because you explicitly said it was about respect.
They're not important enough in my life for me to spend my time worrying about. Or maybe I should say I don't get emotionally involved in anything they say at that point. They live in whatever bubble they live in and it has nothing to do with me.
And that some might consider it respect that I simply let them have whatever opinion they want.
When someone makes an idiotic comments the options are:
i) ignore them
ii) call them an idiot
iii) explain why they're wrong
All these new guidelines are askig you avoid is ii). This thread has a few other people saying that criticism is valuable. But the guidelines are not asking people to stop giving criticism! They're just asking people to avoid either needless negativity or personal negativity.
You can still, if you wish, destroy bad ideas while staying firmly within the guidelines.
I don't want to explain why someone is wrong, they don't care. Do you know how often I've corrected someone online and had them not deny the problem?
Not often enough for me to spend my time worrying about it.
We clearly disagreed, I'll not deny that, but the arrogance and manipulation you're referring to was an invitation to comment on something I believe is fundamental. I didn't tell you whether you had to agree, but instead was looking for the point at which our opinions diverged. I can't make you agree with me, nor would I necessarily want to, a world where we all thought the same would be lesser for it, instead I'd prefer to find out about the thoughts guiding our differences.
Perhaps the problem was that I wasn't angry, that you needed conflict in order to bring out what you could've said. I can't be sure that it's true for you, but in my experience some people are fuelled by that sort of drama. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just not what I personally want.
He's stated his position and believes it's confirmed by how he's been downvoted and flagkilled. For what it's worth, I think he's right, I think that whatever you think of his comment, the reception was disproportionate; but that doesn't matter now: he's gone.
And you jabber on and on. You find his other comments so you can make him read more, desperate for another chance. You can't walk away.
You hate to lose.
I bet you want to respond with some gimmick about how you're concerned about him. Stop lying to yourself: he left the conversation with you, and you're alone talking to yourself. This is about you now.
(Well, and me. But I'm trying to teach you something about how your constant search for a middle ground is in reality pretty condescending.)
Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News. Moreover this subthread has gone far off topic. Please stop.
FWIW, I've admired how you've responded with consideration and honesty to feedback elsewhere in the comments, clearly it's a contentious issue but I believe the thread has been more productive as a result of your approach.
I get what you're saying, but it wasn't fair calling throwawaymaroon out in this conversation. If anything Zeno and myself deserve it, but not throwawaymaroon.
Good. So why is it condescending? What do you find offensive about being reasonable with those you disagree with?
>What do you find offensive about being reasonable with those you disagree with?
To start, here it feels like you're trying to put words in my mouth. I didn't say it was offensive to be reasonable with those you disagree with.
Now I can see, on closer reading, that you're just extending what I said about finding a middle ground. And it's a good way to detect where a miscommunication is by saying what you think I meant (that is, you're telling me how you received it).
But it causes a miscommunication in that I receive it as an uncharitable reading: the tone of "I'm lightly incredulous that this is what you mean, please clarify" becomes "You believe something utterly and obviously ridiculous."
But that's not really what this has been about. More to the point, I think the problem you're having is that you assume someone has to want to meet you in the middle. There isn't any rule that says this about discussion, even if it's generally assumed and often true.
mreiland made his point and then he didn't want to spend any more time with you.
>Your post perfectly shows part of the problem, which is... you can give it, but you can't take it. If you're not prepared to give people the benefit of the doubt, why would you expect something different in return?
>>You missed my point, have a good day.
In some ways it's unfair of him to do this, but at least he did it directly and honestly. And you still had, in my opinion, a chance to re-engage him. You tried:
>>>Then let's discuss what I missed, perhaps I did misunderstand you. Let's start again from this, do you agree with the golden rule? What does it mean to you? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule
Why did this fail? I think it's at least partly true that you weren't being fair to him. You are trying to find middle ground, it's true, but it's middle ground you're beginning with conditions favorable to you.
And more importantly it's a bit absurd to ask him to move to a discussion on basic ethics terms. That's where I got the 'school exercise' bit: you're asking him to jump through hoops to satisfy your desire for a peaceful resolution, or a 'further understanding,' or whatever it is your goal was.
Rereading your comments more closely, I'm starting to think maybe the problem is that you're charmingly naive (and I mean that well): you're a genuinely positive person with thick skin and an earnest desire to communicate. Maybe today that reacted badly with a gruff and grumbling persona; maybe in communicating with friends you can successfully get people to sit down with introspective and meditative discussion questions like this one:
> I know I've made mistakes in the past. If I make a mistake in something I've said, does that exclude me from being able to learn from it? How will you know who is capable of learning without exploring their reasoning?
"Let's go around the circle and share an experience, shall we?" -- Fun in some situations, but not really appropriate to mreiland.
I think that's most of what I can think of to say about your tactics.
I'd like to broaden something out to make a meta-point, though, because none of that explains why mreiland was so deliberate about ignoring you. In some sense, the conversation is about the right to write someone off. It's a right mreiland exercised gleefully in your case; perhaps even a touch too gleefully, but even that's part of the point: it's his right to do so if he chooses, because you can't force him into a conversation.
There's also a sense in which that was a necessary part of his strategy: refuse to muddle that point and stick solely to the right to discontinue conversation. I don't know how well he managed that in the end, but the main event is still: mreiland made a level-headed comment saying "I'm inclined to write people off," and got written off by the community.
That's one of the highest compliments I've ever received! Even naïve sounds heroic to me in the way you put it. Thank you very much!
"Maybe today that reacted badly with a gruff and grumbling persona"
Maybe, but it wasn't completely uncalled for. For what it's worth, I understood the risk of asking for clarity with a leading question, it's not the first time it has backfired. Sometimes I forget people need to vent freely, as I often want to cut to the core of the matter. It's possibly a sign of impatience, I'll try to give people more time in the future.
To be clear, whilst I certainly do desire peaceful resolution of conflict, I'm also interested in the truth. Whilst all truth is subjective, it should bear to stand up to a certain amount of scrutiny. You're quite right that mreiland made a level-headed comment about writing people off and subsequently got written off, my only real feedback was that such a response was predictable. The reasons given for writing off were slightly different (writing off idiocy vs. writing off intolerance) but at the core it's the same issue, in that to give is to receive in return. I don't know mreiland's history, and maybe he/she has more reason than most to write some people off quickly, all I can say is that it's a vicious cycle. I hoped some exploration of it could help change that cycle, but it didn't work out this time, no problem, time for me to let it go.
Thank you for your thoughtful response throwawaymaroon, it was very much appreciated.
Exactly it. Normally I just stop responding, but I was making a point.
Putting real effort into each and every internet conversation in which a disagreement happens will leave you emotionally drained and angry at the world.
I can't remember where I read it, but someone I believe was wise once said 'Our first approximation of other people is ourselves'. If I considered myself to be closed minded, it seems to be a burden. Sure, it would make some things simpler, but it's also quite isolating. Furthermore, it's too simplistic, no one is wise or a fool all the time, do you see the space in yourself for both?
I'm still apt to argue and discuss until the cows come home, but I have to evaluate the other person first to determine if it's worth the emotional effort.
You never know if you're arguing with a 50 year old who has seen some shit or a 17 year old who has read some shit. One of those is more useful to argue with than the other.