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From a strictly halachic view point, ars is actually right. If you are sabbath observant and keep kosher, but don't actually believe in God, torah from sinai etc, no one knows and you're still a kosher witness for example. (By kosher witness I mean someone allowed to bear witness in Jewish courts of law, at wedding ceremonies etc).

Conversely, if you believe in God and want to serve him, but are not that interested in Sabbath Observance for example, then strictly speaking you would be sentenced to death if there was a Sanhedrin (old high court of Jewish law, non existent since destruction of the Second Temple).

Of course if you declare your apostasy that's a separate issue.

Your claims are more how you feel about the religion then what it strictly requires. Also the Rambam's tenants are 13, not 12.

It's difficult to argue with you when you mention the word Halacha, which is specifically talking about the laws that revolve around behavior and actions. Even within that context, no one denies the concept of "Kavanah".

Ars used a dishonest argument that follows the following logic. "Since we would rather someone do the mitzvos without faith than not do them at all, then it must be that the actions are more important than faith." In fact, the only reason to act a certain way without the belief and intention behind it is "mitoch shelo lishma, bah lishmah" since actions can influence their faith.

Still, the fundamental point of Torah Observance is about hisbonenus, emunah, bitachon, and tikun olam. Almost entirely around understanding G-d and connecting spiritually. This is not just how I feel, this is black and white fundamentals. Sure, the mitzvos and halacha are crucial...but lets not distort that to mean that one shouldn't focus on the faith as long as he does the bare minimum action...

I stand corrected about the 13 maimonides tenants of faith. -----------------------------------

I don't know if this is your intent, but you have in an instant completely flipped Judaism from something interesting to this agnostic, to something completely dead-end and not worth pursuing.

A compromising approach is accessible. A hard-line "nothing less than absolute and total devotion is even worth considering, and therefore fundamentally not worth your time" is not. Where is the unsure, dubious, or curious individual to even begin, if all that is even acceptable is absolutely unwavering, unshaking, unhesitating prostration?

I realize teachings don't care what is accessible and what is not. I'm not trying to tell you what should be taught. But, just, if you ever wonder why it is shrinking instead of growing- FYI.

I must have failed to communicate clearly. Let me explain. The fundamental purpose of life according to Judaism is about striving towards personal perfection and growth(Tikun Olam).

Striving towards being the key terms.as long as you are trying, you are serving your purpose on your own level. This is actually what ars was talking about...it's better to act without belief than to not act...my only point was not to lose focus on the end goal.

If I had to explain it without religion from the simple perspective of seeking truth. I would say," since intellect is driven by will(we only learn something if we want to, we only seek the answer to a question we care about, etc...)how can we seperate out our personal bias and desires and subjective needs from the absolute truth we all so desperately seek?"

Almost all the mitzvos in the Torah and ritual activities Jews partake in are about selflessness and finding ways to root out personal bias so you can see the truth. If you have to pray before biting into an Apple, you are essentially putting G-ds will ahead of your own desire to eat.

By nurturing this sensitivity and willingness to seek truth from outside yourself and your own research, you can be more objective and find absolute truth.

Think about a science experiment where you start with only one hypothesis. You can easily find evidence to confirm your hypothesis, but it won't prove anything scientifically because you didn't compare hypothesis to see if the evidence can support other hypothesis as well.

In order to maximize on personal relationships, life, etc... You need to root out your personal emotions and bias as much as possible...

That's all Judaism is about... rooting out subjective bias to seek truth in an effort to achieve personal growth.

This requires a willingness to trust others before you and recognize that if you only behave based on what you fully understand you will be acting on bias. So, we do lots of things we don't quite understand trusting our parents, grandparents, etc...as we seek to understand more and more.

> A hard-line "nothing less than absolute and total devotion is even worth considering, and therefore fundamentally not worth your time" is not.

Judaism is about how to have a relationship with God. How can a human hope to do that? By doing what God asked. But also by arguing over what God wants.

It's like how do you have a relationship with a person you never met? By reading his writings.

The atheists in the story probably spend more time thinking about God than a regular member. By doing what God wants (the actions), and by thinking about him constantly, they probably have a deeper relationship with God than others do.

> But, just, if you ever wonder why it is shrinking instead of growing- FYI.

Judaism is not looking for converts. If you want to convert you can, but Judaism isn't going to try to convince you, or tell you your path in life is wrong. Non-Jews can live perfectly meaningful lives.

I think you're mistaking the parent's refusal to compromise that which is truly good, for something else.

Belief in God is certainly important. But action is more important than belief.

> All the actions and commandments are tools for reaching spiritual connection and understand G-d with more clarity.

And if you do that, and skip the action because you feel you have the spiritual connection you failed. But if you did the action, but did not have any special spiritual feeling, you still did what God wants, and that's what counts.

> The quote you reference, which for the life of me, I cannot recall as being accurate...certainly only means that behavior can influence belief.

It's from Pesachim 50b (among other places) if you want to look it up.

> The idea that Judaism is more concerned with action over thought is patently FALSE!

No. It's not. Thought it important, but action is what matters.

I assume that the quote from Pesachim 50b that you are referring to is "metoch shlo lishma bah lishma", which means that if you do what G-d commanded for your own sake (because G-d will reward you), then you'll eventually come to do it for his sake. This is talking about someone who actually believes they are doing what G-d commanded. I have never heard it interpreted as someone who doesn't believe at all. The talmud says that "mitzvos tzrichus kevanah". In order to actually perform what G-d commanded, you have to realize and recognize that you are doing what G-d commanded. Without any belief in G-d, no matter what actions you do, Judaism teaches that you are not doing anything at all. Judaism is a religion of thought and action. If you have a complete lack of one of those two things, you are not observing the religion whatsoever.

> All that being said, a well rounded, Torah observant Jew, regardless of their denomination will have a healthy balance of faith, moral compass, and action that leads to living an optimal, healthy, happy, meaningful life to the fullest.

Why can't I say the same about hardline atheists modulo the stuff about the Torah and faith?