You'd think they had just planted the flag in the soil ( ice? ) and claimed Pluto for God and America.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the Space Race is over. Grow up. You're doing this for all humanity.
Look at it from a purely practical perspective - it is absolutely unnecessary for anyone outside of America to like this program!
The American voting public took on all of the downsides of this program (the expense, mainly). They hold complete control over its existence, and the existence of many missions like it. Patriotism motivates people, and until we start frequently sending international space probes it seems pretty useful to me.
Maybe Europe would benefit from having a bit more American-style "rah-rah" patriotism around the good old "12 stars on deep blue" EU flag.
Nowadays it seems that we European citizens are constantly looking for reasons to argue rather than reasons to stick together, and that's a huge change from the positive European atmosphere of the '90s.
Something most americans don't understand is how repulsive blatant patriotism is. A lot of europeans, along with their nationality, have a sense of being "european", just like most americans have a sense of being "american" (rather than just "Californian" or what have you).
There's nothing wrong with being proud of your country (or continent). There's everything wrong with an "in your face, my country is better than yours" attitude.
If you're a citizen of any EU country, you can just go anywhere else in Europe, no questions asked. You're welcome, anywhere in Europe. I travel a lot. I move a lot (I've lived in several different countries in the EU). This is one hell of a wonderful feeling; and even though, by distances, EU countries are similar to US states... there's really nothing like being immersed in a completely different environment. The weather is different, the language is different, the customs are different.
Singing the national anthem in schools? Chanting "<country>! <country>!" whenever something cool happens which you want to be a part of? It's alright I suppose when you aren't constantly crossing national borders. When there's only [edit: realistically] two other countries on your continent. Nobody's going to be offended (well, nobody that will be able to tell you). But it's the last thing Europe needs.
Case in point, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhITpTtG888
In other words, about as representative of Americans as a Le Pen rally is about French.
[Contra another comment nearby: due to the venue, I believe it was a genuine chant, not ironic, although probably a bit giddy. If it had been a more mainstream university, I agree, that would have definitely been a goofy ironic chant.]
There's something I could counter relating to certain European tendencies to explain the world to the world since certain parts of Europe still consider most of the planet as belonging to them, but I won't, because this isn't the thread or the place. Did everybody in this thread wake up today and say "gosh, I'm going to argue about America in a thread about Pluto, that's my achievement for the day"?
But turn that into mindless yelling and that's just a pissing contest. It's ignorant of what other countries have to bring.
To give you a concrete example: I'm french. There's a lot of things I'm not proud of from my country. I'm proud of my language; French is beautiful. But I also make an effort to learn the language of every country I live in. I have fallen in love with Swedish. Had I been in a pissing match telling everybody (but mostly myself) how amazing French is, would I have gotten the chance to learn any other language? Would I have gotten the chance to even write my thoughts, in English, on this very forum?
This is a relevant example because, in France, a lot of people have that attitude of being too proud to learn another language. It's one of the recurring tourist complaints about France, in fact! I see this as no different.
Nationalism is IMO deeper than that. To use a EU example, many people in Greece complain about countries that are giving them money. “How dare they attach strings when handing us money!!!” That’s nationalist in ways I have trouble understanding.
It's really just a time filler to cover the gap between when classes end and a school game begins. Growing up in the US I think we had ~1 or 2 per year from ~8th-12th grade. They were also generally fairly short as in 10-15 minutes with I think one lasting 45 when the other team was late.
PS: Most games did not take place during the school day, but I think they scheduled a few that with a small overlap if a team would otherwise get home really late during a week night. I think there much more common in low density areas for this reason.
Edit: Though like all such traditions it's been morphing for a while. With some schools holding them before big events and or in the middle of the day.
I couldn't imagine my school in Scotland doing anything similar (and we were a very sporty school, with compulsory attendance at a lot of inter-school games, which I mostly sneaked away from).
Comparing the 41(!) countries of North America[0] with the 58 countries of Europe[1] is really comparing apples and oranges.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_countri...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
Define "everyone else", because I certainly don't. "Central" America is part of North America; the dividing line is between Panama and Colombia.
Claiming that Central America isn't really North America is like claiming that the Middle East isn't really Asia. It's a geographically-ignorant statement.
My point was centered on borders and neighbouring countries. Do you ever see US immigration politics talking about anything else than Mexico? Canada + Mexico + the US occupy something like 95% of the landmass alone.
Whenever you hear people talk about immigration in europe, we're talking about immigration from generally 5+ other countries, and often enough another neighbouring continent. Each of those countries are so incredibly different from one another it is very hard to put it in perspective with the US.
We have an illegal immigration problem from Mexico due to conditions there and our border situation. However, countless people from South America flow though the same system by buying their way to Mexico first. That's the immigration politics you observe, because how to handle it is partisan.
This whole thread, which was extraordinarily stupid from the get go, is amounting to Europeans explaining the U.S. to the U.S. You guys are getting it wrong, too, your comments included. Who gives a shit about immigration policy? We are in a bloody thread about mankind's achievement in space. Christ, hang it up for one day.
Yes, there's quite a lot of immigration politics around employment based immigrant visas and the dual-intent H-1B and related immigration issues, which is mostly not about Mexico.
Its true that much "immigration" discussion centers around addressing both the current population and the ongoing influx of unauthorized immigrants, where the majority are from Mexico (largely, as a result of an immigration policy based on country-of-origin based quotas, that has guaranteed that the countries that have the largest pool of otherwise-qualified applicants have the longest lines, and the fact that that Mexico, as a result, is one of the hardest places to immigrate to the US legally from, particularly in the family-based categories, while, because of geography, being one of the easiest places to immigrate illegally from.)
As a Californian: all the damn time. Mexico is the target of immigration debates because it's the U.S.'s immediate neighbor; most immigrants (legal or otherwise) from South and Central America either go through Mexico or take a boat.
North America differs from Europe only in the linear arrangement of nodes in a migration graph. In terms of origins, I reckon you're significantly downplaying the similarities.
I don't know man, I was reading quite a lot about it and loving every minute of it.
that we have our own issues is true, just as everybody else out there, including US. personally I am proud of any european space achievement, especially since it's obvious how hard it is to do some coordinated international effort.
Enter any thread, on any major forum online, and bring up any of the following topics: healthcare, crime rates, gun control, two party systems, standard of living, inequality, conservative religiousness. You'll be rapidly overwhelmed by bragging from Europeans, about how they're superior.
You can't get away from the boastfulness out of Scandinavia, Germany, France, the UK, the Netherlands - about how they're all superior to America on any given topic. I've yet to find a major forum where this doesn't occur.
I disagree that patriotism or nationalistic bragging is in any way uncommon in Europe.
Very few of those people are actually European. For one, nobody introduces themselves as European :)
I heard they're just American teenagers trying to troll people.
I think this view of celebration as bragging is your real issue.
You do realize all these "boasts" tend to come from people who don't live, and usually have never lived, in said countries, right? Not to mention the whole Scandinavia deal which comes 99% from americans talking about it like it's the true land of the free, or something. Scandinavia's pretty great for a lot of reasons, don't get me wrong, but unless you're frequenting very nationalistic forums, poeple tend to complain about their country rather than boast it. The grass is always greener in the other country. (Except for Scotland. The grass is greenest in Scotland.)
That's a bit harsh - have you seen our weather, foodstuffs, national sporting teams or famously short tempers....
Of course, wouldn't surprise me if our grass wasn't rather green, but I refer you to our my comment about the weather!
Regarding the specific issues you raised, I may mention it, not out of pride, but just as concrete examples of things that work fine elsewhere and could work in the US, despite what some conservative folks would want you to believe.
It's just that I long consider myself citizen of this world, rather than citizen of some pre-marked real estate, which was different 500 (or even 100) years ago, and will no doubt change beyond recognition many times in future. patriotism goes in direct opposition to this belief, bringing "us and them" mentality (with obvious emphasis that "us" is better), which I personally believe isn't something to be proud of and strive for in 21st century. Bear in mind this is my personal opinion, I don't represent all citizens of Europe any more than you do represent all US citizens :)
"N-H-S N-H-S" *
*NHS - National Health Service for the UK
As an American, I agree that we don't have much to be proud of lately, but I think that's why it's especially important to rally around achievements like the success of our space program as citizens. Despite how it may appear from abroad, the US is more divided than ever at home, and our government pursues policies that many of our citizens don't agree with. It's very, very rare that we can all get together as citizens and be truly proud of something our nation has done, and it serves as a way to build good will between people who normally would never come together. Please don't try to take this away from us.
There was huge news coverage of the initial landing, and the amazing images. Then, when contact was re-established, there was another burst of coverage - so much, in fact, that many friends who ordinarily have no interest in space or science would mention it to me as a 'pub conversation' bit of trivia. I was actually very pleased with the coverage of the Rosetta/Philae mission, modulo the shirt issues, and I hope more space science gets that kind of exposure.
When news media talks about European integration, it's always with the "Greeks are lazy, Germans are stuck up" style angle that tries to play up national stereotypes.
Rarely do we get to read about Europe as a group of people that get together to put spacecraft on comets, and the EU as a project that has brought 70 years of peace to Central Europe for the first time since the Roman Empire.
This is actually why I never warmed up to Star Trek "Enterprise" (Captain Archer and friends) -- it basically presented itself as "Americans in Space", starting with the intro's repeatedly showing (exclusively) American flags. All the other shows didn't waste much time on modern nations because those were something mankind had outgrown: it wasn't even "us humans" anymore, the Federation spanned different species just like the UN today spans different nations.
To give my answer to your first question - yes, while I did think of it as a European achievement, being impressed that so many countries can come together for a common goal, I was more impressed with it as an achievement for humanity as a whole.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Horizons#Mission_profile
True. But the rest of the world bears the brunt of American liabilities.
Although according to wikipedia the rest of the world owns about half of the american liabilities.
That's pretty damned impressive by any standard you care to mention so go ahead, "U-S-A" yourselves a few more times. I think it was earned.
EDIT: Why do I get downvoted? I was merely explaining OP's point of view.
I don't see the bias here--New Horizons is legitimately a project to be proud of.
On the other hand, it's arguably pretty aggressive to accelerate a machine to over 13 km/s and send it inside the orbit of a planet's closest satellite.
On the gripping hand, Pluto's government hasn't complained, so why should you?
The Art Of War, and all that.
What's the disagreement exactly? That they cheered for their country? It's ok at a FIFA match, but not for something drastically more important? Subjective bias at its worse. When I see that attitude about something like this from non-Americans, it reeks of other countries feeling intimidated and jealous because they're not even on the same playing field with the US when it comes to space. It's nothing more than ugly envy.
If they stick to science, Fox News won't mention it. And if Fox News never mentions NASA, then people get upset about spending their tax dollars on an organization that seemingly does nothing...
In Russia, you have to remember to thank Putin. In USA, you have to remember to wave the flag with sufficient enthusiasm. It's the same thing -- Russians just prefer personified nationalism while Americans rally around abstracted symbols (flag, original text of the Constitution, etc.)
But if this (exploring space) is the result of jingoism? Give us more of it. Seems like a really minor thing to get worked up about.
In an ideal would people would support it for science alone, but we don't live in that world.
Also, jingoism: "the feelings and beliefs of people who think that their country is always right and who are in favor of aggressive acts against other countries".
Get. Over. Yourself.
On a side note: I completely disagree with people who compare this to the World Cup or the Olympics. The whole idea of those competitions are nations competing with each other and science and exploration is not about the achievement of one particular nation, rather the advancement of humanity.
None of this means that we should take any credit from NASA or the American tax payers. Everyone should be thankful and I am.
I think part of me would prefer a calmer, more civilized approach to space exploration, but on the balance I'll take twice the budget if I can get it.
Humanity has now sent probes to every of our original 9 planets (poor pluto..), we've sent probes into interstellar space. We've landed on comets. We've a permanent international presence in orbit onboard ISS. We're talking manned missions to Mars. We're commercialising space flight.
At this point it's about humanity, not countries.
You, sir, need to watch the news.
It has been the same for any outwardly expanding empire, from the British, French, Spanish, German in more recent times back to the Roman / Greek days.
The first rule for near constant warfare, get the flags out, get the crowds chanting....
I'm not surprised by it, but it feels... out of place. If anything, they should be chanting "NASA", as not all of the USA is onboard with the space missions.
If overt patriotism is what's needed to get more NASA funding, then so be it.
It's brown-nosing, at worst.