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Comment by fab13n | Hacker News Reader

Reading this as a European, it's fun and telling that you focused on salary differences, whereas what mattered to me were the other quality-of-life elements (I assume you're living in the US).

To sum up, what matters to me, in what she described, were the consequences of the belief that one shouldn't be ashamed of having a life outside of work, and needing some time and peace of mind to actually enjoy it.

More money won't make me happier if I don't have holidays, week-ends, and some time during workdays to actually enjoy spending it, without being chronically on the verge of a burn-out. This is common sense in Europe, whereas it seems to be considered leftist heresy in the US.

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Did parent edit? Because all I see is work-life balance.

Well. Not sure if this is the EU only but I am from the Netherlands and moved to Spain. Cost went down, quality of life is so much higher it now seems like a joke I ever lived in the Netherlands. And was born there. If quality of life is what you are working for the south of the EU is something to consider.

Disclaimer: I am very leftish ( I was very right when I was young; if you will not work fuck off ) by circumstance : by design of what you and me do, there will be no jobs like there are now. And people cannot die in the streets so we need to change things. I spend all my waking ours trying to do that and loving it.

More money would make me happier. I'd give up a few Saturdays for it. One day a week is enough rest. Besides, few pleasures compare to productively working.

More time off would make me happier. I'd give up $10k/year for it. $90k/year is enough money. Besides, few pleasures compare to spending quality time with your loved ones.

So now we have two pieces of anecdotal evidence, worth exactly twice as much as one (2*0)

So do it. Do what makes you happy. If you aren't happy working or you don't get enough time off... change the situation. But don't spend a bunch of your life unsatisfied.

The vast majority of Americans simply do not have that choice. They can't go to their boss and say, "hey boss, I want to take a 10% pay cut and get an extra 2 weeks off." American work culture simply doesn't allow that.

Any smart boss with decision making power should instantly give workers an additional 2 weeks off for a 10% pay cut. (Assuming the workers work more than 20 weeks a year and their duties can be taken up by someone else). It's pure profit at that point.

That aside... there is always a choice. Don't ever think otherwise. You don't have to stay there. You don't have to drive a nice car. Always a choice. It's just a matter of tradeoffs.

It's not profit, it's saving money. But also less production. You get my point.

It's only less production if you assume that productivity remains constant or decreases if you give the employee that extra time off.

I guess I didn't meet that many smart bosses then!

Again, easy for you to say when you're in your early 20s, single, no kids and few friends.

I'm actually 44 years old. But sometimes I feel like I'm still in my early 20's. I credit it to staying interested and staying moving.

I'm not single either. I have a great girlfriend I've lived with for over 10 years.

I don't have kids and only a few close friends, so you did hit that part correctly.

I am actually a freelancer, my example was not of my current situation. But while I was employed it was very hard (I didn't manage to get it despite trying for a while) to get a job as a developer for less than full time regardless of salary.

Anyway that wasn't the point, my point was that stating your particular preference doesn't really add much to the conversation.

Don't give up - I heard of one in Boulder last year, and looking at their site, I see it's still listed.

I am quite happy with my freelancing but thanks :)

What's the point of earning even more money if you're too busy to spend it?

There is a law of diminishing returns when it comes to money, past a certain point it's not worth the time you gave up to get it.

Put it another way, when you reach retirement age, would you rather be a millionaire with health problems or a modestly rich person in great health?

Could you not potentially retire earlier? In that way you're basically "back-loading" all of your vacation time, if one could freely exchange salary for time off.

few pleasures compare to productively working

There is something seriously wrong here. Many, many pleasures in life are as pleasurable, or more pleasurable, than productively working. For many people, productively working is actually not pleasurable.

I suppose it depends on what you enjoy doing and what job you have.

Few pleasures compare to earning money/kudos/badges with something you love. Productivity? Eh? I worked stacking shopping goods for supermarkets when I was 13; doing 1000 did not feel better than 200 for anyone there, including the full time staff. I understand you probably meant something else but productivity needs definition here.

Yes... there is something seriously wrong here. If you don't enjoy your work, quit! I work because I love it. The money is a nice side benefit.

Most of American workers don't have that choice. The tech world is an echo chamber, and it's do well to realize we are a privileged few who can dicta to our compensation (for now).

Do you work in Stockholm?

What I gather left and right, and from the story linked, is that in the US, working more hours does not equal more income. Maybe if you're a freelancer that can charge by the hours, but given the US's horrid worker protection, what is an employee in the US might as well be considered a temporary freelancer in other countries.

I'd probably work Saturdays if I got paid by the hour, but at the same time, if I did and it was a decent income I'd probably opt to work less - and I don't even have a family.

I'm a little surprised by the negative reaction. You people don't derive pleasure from working... from the process of building things, from molding reality? I damn sure do. But then again... I'm an American.

It's not contradictory at all. One can derive pleasure from working, and still enjoy their free time. The good thing about free time is that you can use it to build things if that's what you want.

And don't forget that most people don't have the luxury of an enjoyable job.

That last point is debatable in the Western world but yes it holds globally.

I felt the same way when I was in my early 20s, had recently graduated from college, was single and had few friends. My idea of a good Saturday was one in which I sat at a coffee shop by myself and continued working.

A decade later, my perspective has widened and my priorities have shifted. I still derive a lot of pleasure from work (even though I wouldn't describe it as "molding reality"), but I also realize that work is ultimately a means to an end, which is to spend time with my friends and loved ones and/or develop my hobbies.

Sure, I derive pleasure from work. But I don't work for free, and I would rather be doing a lot of other things that are more enjoyable, but less profitable, than working.

Well, it's largely because you're trolling. It worked, too.

I don't think trolling. I'm just saying I like being busy. I don't want hour and half lunches at the cafe. I don't want 6 weeks a year off. I like working, I like making stuff and I like making money. I like resting too. I rest especially well when I'm tired from work. It's a good feeling.

"You guys are lazy. I like work... because I'm American" is a pretty garden-variety troll.

Where is the word lazy mentioned or even implied?

I do like working. And this is a traditional characteristic of Americans. With all the America bashing that goes on (some admittedly deserved) this is a thing I'm particularly proud of about my country. I'm proud of what we have invented, what we have achieved in very short period of time. I'd like to be part of that tradition.

Your trolling accusation is entirely unfounded.

"I didn't imply others were lazy, I'm just proud that America is different because we work hard"? Seriously?

One would have to really stretch to get the lazy implication. America is different. That's factual. America does (or did) have a culture of hard work and innovation. I'm proud of this and don't make any attempt to hide that. That says nothing about other people.

I did take a moment to read the complaints in your profile and have some kind of idea that you might be susceptible to feeling abuse from public forums and have very rigid ideas of how people should behave in them. I encourage a bit more flexibility in your thinking. Again, not trolling. That accusation is way off base (and in fact, a trolling behavior itself). You really should apologize.

> That says nothing about other people.

If you say group X is different because it has more of quantity Y, then it means that you think non-Xers have less of quantity Y. You can't say a demographic is noted for a virtue, then say that this is not a comment on other people - because those other people are the baseline against which the measure is made.

> You really should apologize.

Really? Right after you accuse me a stretching, then immediately use my profile to say something I never suggested? My profile commentary is asking for accountability in the way the forum moderation works, not demanding that people behave a certain way. People are free to disagree all they want, but the way the forum manages disagreement sucks - how many times do we see people genuinely puzzled about why their comments get downmodded, and asking for explanations?

It's also a bit much to be accused of being susceptible to feeling abuse, then having an apology demanded over a passing internet disagreement. You want me to grow a thick skin, but don't have one yourself?

I'm not down voting you and I don't have any friends on here to do so. I don't know why you are getting greyed out.

I looked back through your comment history. Mostly reasonable comments with a couple of sort of unfounded accusations of trolling. I did see one comment where you talked about Japanese being hard workers and industrious. Would you consider that calling everyone lazy?

It doesn't matter. I gave my opinion. You are free to consider it trolling if you chose. I like working mostly. I'm proud of my culture. You seem like a generally decent guy. I'm dropping it.

Ironically this is a good example of the screed in my profile :)

We're being downvoted because we were in something of a flamewar, and people are trying to discourage that with downvotes. If there were mandatory reasons and attributions required for modding, you wouldn't have to second-guess what was going on. I also know it's not you downvoting because you can't downvote a direct reply to your own comment.

Anyway, yes, time to move on.

Do you live to work, or do you work to live?

What's the difference?

Work. Bees don't do it.

Deleted comment

Please don’t make personal attacks here on HN.

In America you can choose your job based on how you want to live. You can pursue your life and goals based on what you want out of it. Is that not true in Switzerland?

I think you've bought into little more than propaganda. Americans take off weekends. And how do you judge 330 million people when it comes to burn-out, given the vast differences among them all?

BS. I have seen far fewer Americans in a position where they can take the Friday afternoons off like a lot of Europeans can. Or extended paternity leaves. Or sabbaticals.

I have yet to see a software company in the US with the amount of time off as European companies despite the fact that most of the people I know in the US would trade salary for time off.

It's simply a race to the bottom; with no incentive for employers to reduce the number of working hours (because there are no laws for it, because white collar employees are exempt from overtime, because Americans stupidly believe that they can't achieve work improvements through collective bargaining), it is obvious that they will attempt to squeeze as much work out of employees up to, but not beyond, the point of futility.

America needs sane ("first world") labor regulations (mandatory vacation/sick time, longer maternity/paternity leave, etc).

I have come to believe, for better or worse, that you cannot be the leading economical force with those things in place. I think it is needed for that.

The most productive places in the US also have relatively strong labor laws and labor unions. I'm not implying a causal relationship, just saying that it can't be that bad.

> In America you can choose your job based on how you want to live.

So the millions of poor people having to work two or three shitty jobs just to make ends meet chose to do so and want to live like that? Bullshit. Go watch some documentaries about the subject.

The number of people who can choose their job based on how they want to live is dwindling rapidly.

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