https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Arnold_S...
2,515 karma · joined April 12, 2019
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Arnold_S...
That is a strawman argument. Coal has generally been uneconomical since the advent of combined cycle gas turbines where gas infrastructure exists. Today renewables are vastly undercutting both.
Trying to frame it as a choice between nuclear and coal is only made because nuclear does not stack up against the real competition in 2023.
> I forget what a life saved is worth in engineering terms. Something like 1 or 10 million per capita I think. $200 billion in cleanup only needs to save ~200-2,000 lives to be justified.
Or we just build power generation without those third party risks. I do not understand why you are trying to frame a $200 billion cleanup bill as "nothing to see, move along sheeple!".
> I'm cool with the idea that they should fix their pipe. I'm not cool with it being treated like a big deal without pretty solid evidence that the deal is big.
Almost all nuclear accidents final hole in the Swiss cheese is some sort of loss of cooling. When the backup power fails due to negligent maintenance that is a big deal.
Fukushima led to us building stockpiles of backup generators together with the necessary electric connections allowing us us to fly them in with helicopters and connect them if the primary ones fail. Saying that failure in the primary ones is "fine, nothing to see" is sticking your head in the sand.
Take the severe Forsmark incident in 2006 in Sweden. Many of the "defense in depth" layers had been accidentally removed through freak occurrences and upgrades. Thus loss of cooling became almost a certainty. That is why you test and do not accept half fixes to placate the operators profit margin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsmark_Nuclear_Power_Plant#J...
> And the downside of that risk coming to fruition is a 0-death to near-0-death crisis (which is much better than whatever this precise external shock will cause).
And a at least $200B bill to cleanup the mess in Fukushimas case. Lets remove the Price Anderson Act so they have to pay the true cost for their risk?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price%E2%80%93Anderson_Nuclear...
For example, every single line of code is simply a scratchpad if I don't sync it to a remote git instance.
For my off site backup I have a computer which syncs everything to local storage. I guess I don't defend against malicious intent or "delete it all" software bugs but that tends to end up as en exercise in insanity.
Take for example Hinkley Point C, that costs €0.15 per kWh for the consumers. How does that compare?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_powe...
> “And what’s particularly worrying is the lack of a core catcher, which in the event of a failure of the emergency reactor core systems, would retain the nuclear fuel once it breached the reactor pressure vessel. On top of that, concrete cracking in all four reactor containment buildings hasn’t helped, nor has installation of faulty pilot-operated safety relief valves.”
https://www.power-technology.com/features/divided-opinion-in...
> The same argument according to which solar panels and such will become cheaper as demand increases (because of economies of scale and technical improvements) also applies to nuclear power plants.
The French nuclear scale-up famously did negative learning by doing. Economics of scale is not something you can assume. This is from before Flamanvile 3 started, that is even more negative learning.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03014...
It is hard to finance a plant when you will on average sell the power at a loss. The money has to come from somewhere.
Let's remove all laws where the public bear the cost of accidents then? Should be fine since it's the safest!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price%E2%80%93Anderson_Nuclear...
That is for the U.S., but equivalent laws exist in all countries with nuclear power plants.
The recent nuclear plants constructed in the west requires something like $5-15B above the market price in subsidies, of course depending on size. Would be interesting to know how they intend to solve that.
When dealing with async operations they tend to end up at a network boundary and thus the service enters distributed system land.
Now the async drop also has to handle the server crashing before the drop happens and at any time when it happens. Keeping that in mind trying to actually drop something becomes quite meaningless since you need to handle all other cases either way.
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nrc-denies-oklo-powers-plan...
Likewise, a renewable plant that makes the money back in ~25 years allows the investor to reconsider the investment decision and better optimize the capital allocation two times while the ones building nuclear are still paying for the nuclear plant. The renewable owner could after 50 years decide to invest in nuclear. I wonder which is more efficient?
On the other hand, the question is where the grid ends and a power plant begins. Previously when the grid owners and power generators were the the same utility the question did not matter, grids were built to accommodate the locations of nuclear plants.
Countries have gone in different directions on this. In the UK the off-shore wind farm builders are responsible for their grid connections while in Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands the grid operator pays for it.
The research is clear, every cent invested in nuclear power prolongs the climate crisis. [3]
> On both costs and speed, renewable energy sources beat nuclear. Every euro invested in new nuclear plants thus delays decarbonization compared to investments in renewable power. In a decarbonizing world, delays increase CO2 emissions.
The recently nationalized debt laden French nuclear behemoth EDF can not even finance new nuclear plants without direct state aid. [4]
> (Montel) French utility EDF is unable to self-finance the construction of new nuclear reactors due to its EUR 65bn debt and so needs state funding, CEO Luc Remont told a hearing of France’s lower house on Wednesday.
Meanwhile Germany are raking in tens of billions by simply selling the right to build off-shore wind. [5]
> Germany’s first dynamic bidding process, covering four offshore wind zones with a combined capacity of 7 GW, has generated EUR 12.6 billion in proceeds, according to the Federal Network Agency.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamanville_Nuclear_Power_Plan...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtle_Electric_Generating_Pla...
[3]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243512...
[4]: https://www.montelnews.com/news/1511372/french-state-must-fu...
[5]: https://www.offshorewind.biz/2023/07/12/breaking-germany-rak...
Docking at a certain place simply to bunker just doesn't happen on larger vessels where utilization factor is everything.
https://www.marineinsight.com/guidelines/bunkering-is-danger...
Today the equivalent choice when rebuilding our energy systems are renewables.
Case in point, already in 2021 renewables delivered more TWh globally per year than all existing nuclear [1], we are still early in the buildout. The tender in 2024/25 for German north sea wind auctions will be ~10 GW. [2]
[1]: https://imgur.com/JYMNAWR
[2]: https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight...
>(Montel) French utility EDF is unable to self-finance the construction of new nuclear reactors due to its EUR 65bn debt and so needs state funding, CEO Luc Remont told a hearing of France’s lower house on Wednesday.
https://www.montelnews.com/news/1511372/french-state-must-fu...
Meanwhile Germany and the US is making billions by auctioning the right to build off-shore wind.
> Germany’s first dynamic bidding process, covering four offshore wind zones with a combined capacity of 7 GW, has generated EUR 12.6 billion in proceeds, according to the Federal Network Agency.
https://www.offshorewind.biz/2023/07/12/breaking-germany-rak...
> U.S. Offshore Wind Power Auction Nets Record $4.37 Billion
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-offshore-wind-power-auction...
I have a hard time seeing France as a success story to emulate today. Choosing nuclear was the right choose to gain energy independence in the 70s, today the equivalent choice are renewables.
Why Canadians Can't Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people can)
> It would be wrong to assume that rich countries have only achieved this by offshoring manufacturing overseas – which would simply mean that other countries are consuming this energy on their behalf. Consumption-based energy use – which adjusts for the energy used to produce the goods we import and export – has also plateaued or fallen in many countries. We see this clearly in the chart for Sweden.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price%E2%80%93Anderson_Nuclear...
> Are you saying that was a true statement?
As the op, yes. See:
The limited liability vs Fukushima cost of at least $150B.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price%E2%80%93Anderson_Nuclear...
And this review of the economics by DIW berlin.
> According to “numerous scientific studies,” none of the world’s more than 600 nuclear power stations have ever been economically viable, and the plants could only be operated for years due to government subsidies, the institute claims.
https://www.rechargenews.com/transition/-nuclear-has-never-b...
It is like saying we have infinite fossil fuels because we can use renewables to create it from water and air. The interesting part of the conversation is the efficient allocation of money and people. In that conversation nuclear power never materialized.
Which is another misrepresentation of statistics given that we use less electricity today than 20 years ago.
See this page for "all varieties" of the same graphs. Generally coal is on a downward trajectory, except the blip for the Covid years.
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c...