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conorgil145

871 karma · joined July 14, 2009

Email: conor [at] allthingsauth.com

If you email, please mention you found me on HN :)

I reply to every email that I receive, but making it easy for me to reply by asking for something specific will get you a quicker reply!

Any comments I make are my personal opinion, etc, etc.

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conorgil145··on FreeOTP – An open-source solution for authentication soft tokens
Great conversation!

> Are you sure your extension cannot identify a QR code, identify that it is a valid seed for 2FA, and capture that information before the page finishes rendering, before the malware would have a chance to 'see' it?

I am sure that any browser extension cannot defeat malware running on the system. We have to assume that the malware is robust and sophisticated. If that is true, then it can monitor my browser and steal the secret directly from the web page as soon as the response comes in from the server. Regardless of how the secret is presented to the user (QR code, plain text, etc) and how 2FB changes the rendered page, there is no way that the malware wouldn't be able to also steal it in that same time frame if it's written correctly.

> The new advice on memorised secrets is laid out in 5.1.1 and subsections[0], with important discussion and rationale in Appendix 1[1].

Gotcha. I literally downloaded this report last week and added it to my kindle along with a boatload of other 2FA related case studies, reports, and white papers. Lots of continued research reading to do. I'll keep an eye out for the section you highlighted.

Great to hear that you might kick the tires on 2FB! It is still heavily under development, but getting closer to a dev preview release. If you haven't already, join the mailing list to get notified of releases: http://eepurl.com/c7OBwj

conorgil145··on FreeOTP – An open-source solution for authentication soft tokens
I agree that U2F is generally a more secure 2FA solution than soft tokens on a phone. If you use U2F (hardware), then what are you storing in your password manager (software)? Maybe, the 2FA secrets for sites that don't support U2F yet? If so, care to share which sites you use frequently that do not yet support U2F?

Also, which password manager do you use? I ask specifically because if it is a popular commercial option (1password, LastPass, Dashlane), then your attack vector on your password vault is larger than just local malware. It also includes remote attack directly on the servers of the commercial company. Sure, your vault is encrypted on their servers, but if a hacker gets their hands on your encrypted vault via malware on your system or via their remote servers its the same outcome: they have your encrypted vault and can start to work on it. Make sure that your vault password is really strong so that it cannot realistically be brute forced (I'm sure you already know that).

conorgil145··on FreeOTP – An open-source solution for authentication soft tokens
Wow, that is horrible. Given that, I would argue that, for all intents and purposes, they do not support TOTP then. An average user has zero chance of doing all of that correctly. Bummer the don't support it as a first class citizen in their security UX on their main site.

Care to share a direct link to the TOTP configuration site though?

conorgil145··on FreeOTP – An open-source solution for authentication soft tokens
Interesting, I have not encountered that while using Authy on my phone (Android, Galaxy S5). I think that Authy has the best UX overall, especially when looking up a 2FA code, but generally because:

- The overall design (color scheme, shapes, etc) is much more pleasant and friendly

- each entry has a helpful provider icon, which makes it significantly easier to visually search the list and identify the correct provider. You can also manually change the icon (from a small list) if the one auto assigned is not correct. FreeOTP just shows a blue square icon for every single entry in the list.

- after finding the correct account by scrolling through the list, you need to click on the account to show the 2FA code. I reallly like this (compared to Google Authenticator) because the only digits shown on the screen while I am manually entering it into the browser are the digits that I care about. I cannot tell you how many times I've used GA in the past and accidentally typed the 3 final digits from the incorrect row above or below and need to backspace and correct in the browser. Silly, but incredibly annoying. FreeOTP gets this UX right too.

- when adding a duplicate entry in FreeOTP (scanning a QR code for a service and account combo that is already in FreeOTP), it silently fails to correctly update the 2FA secret (it just does nothing). This happens anytime I rotate my 2FA secret on a website. Authy and GA handle this scenario better. Authy create a duplicate entry with the same name and GA overwrites the existing entry.

- though I don't use it myself, Authy can show either a list of entries (one per row), or a grid of entries. Some users will likely prefer one display over the other. FreeOTP only has a list view option.

- I don't use Authy cloud backup myself, but that is one main reason that many people choose to use Authy. FreeOTP does not have any backup options that I am aware of.

- When deleting a 2FA entry, Authy immediately removes the 2FA entry from your home screen list view, but gives you a 48 hour grace period before it actually deletes the entry from your phone. This significantly reduces anxiety when rotating 2FA secrets and generally gives me warm fuzzies in case I screw something up accidentally.

Authy has some of its own warts for sure, but I personally find it to be the best of the mobile apps I've tried by far.

conorgil145··on FreeOTP – An open-source solution for authentication soft tokens
FYI, Amazon (retail) does support TOTP. Here is a direct link to the 2FA settings so you don't have to crawl through the account settings page looking for it: https://www.amazon.com/a/settings/approval.
conorgil145··on FreeOTP – An open-source solution for authentication soft tokens
Sorry this is so long, but I felt it important to be relatively thorough.

It sounds like there are 2 distinct attack vectors you are considering: malware installed on a trusted device and a local attacker gaining access to a trusted device. I'll define "trusted device" as any device which has a 2FA secret on it (e.g. phone, tablet, laptop, etc).

MALWARE

Malware on a trusted device is absolutely a legitimate attack vector and there are a few distinct scenarios to discuss.

First, assume malware is on the trusted device before 2FA is enabled for a given service. In this scenario, the malware can obtain the 2FA secret directly anytime the user configures 2FA when the QR code is shown on the screen, etc. This is obviously bad, but also obviously out of scope for 2FB.

Second, assume malware is only installed on the trusted device after 2FA is enabled on a given service. In this scenario, the malware will most likely not be able to get the 2FA secret from the service because most services only show the 2FA secret during configuration (good!). The malware can then only get the 2FA secret if it is stored on the same trusted device as the malware (e.g. what 2FB does).

There are some approaches to reduce the attack surface in this scenario. For example, 2FB can encrypt the 2FA secret vault on the trusted device with a user provided password so that all 2FA secrets on disk are encrypted. The malware will now have access to encrypted data on disk that it will have to brute force. This is a similar approach to how Authy cloud backups work [1] and is reasonably secure assuming that the user provided password is strong. 2FB can individually decrypt a given 2FA secret at the appropriate point during the login flow so that the secret is only ever available in plain text in memory and for a short time period. This does not reduce the risk to zero, but it does significantly decrease the risk and increase the complexity of the required malware to obtain the plain text 2FA secrets.

Also, users who are (rightly) concerned about malware on their devices will have the option to explicitly not treat the laptop as a trusted device (disable storage of 2FA secrets on their laptop). In this scenario, 2FB will send a push notification to the 2FB app on your mobile device each time that a 2FA code is required during the login flow. This behavior will basically be the same as Google Prompt [2]. However, whereas Google Prompt only works within the Google ecosystem, 2FB will work for any sites that 2FB integrates with (e.g. Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Github, Stripe, etc, etc). I realize that this is not mentioned at all in the screencast I initially linked to and you had no way to know about this (unless you’re a good guesser or read all of my previous HN comments).

ATTACKER WITH LOCAL ACCESS

This situation begs the question of what the actual threat model is for 2FA. I have been trying to track down an authoritative definition of the 2FA threat model, but cannot find one from a reliable source. (If you know of one in any academic papers, security white papers, etc, please share!). I think that the threat model for 2FA primarily includes a remote attacker gaining access to an account via a leaked knowledge factor (e.g. password). I do not think that 2FA is intended to prevent against local attackers or device theft in general. That being said, I am in strong agreement that separating the knowledge factor and possession factor as much as reasonable is a great idea.

In practice, I believe this means that your password manager on your trusted device should be configured to auto-lock after X minutes of inactivity so that, in effect, it is only unlocked when you are entering a password in a web page. In this case, the knowledge factors are reasonably protected on the trusted device (assuming the master password for your password vault is strong) and could basically be treated as if they weren’t there at all because a local attacker would need to brute force the encrypted file to gain access to the passwords. Similarly, as mentioned above, 2FB can optionally encrypt the 2FA secret vault locally on disk.

Also, a local attacker will likely not even need to steal your authentication factors at all to gain access to your accounts because they can just steal your active session cookies to gain access to your accounts.

A security measure which is more intended to solve the local attacker/stolen device attack vector is full disk encryption. Any device with full disk encryption enabled with a strong password should be reasonably protected from a local attacker assuming that the attacker does not gain access to the trusted device while it is running and logged in as a user.

FINAL THOUGHT

One huge benefit of 2FB being a web extension is that it can help prevent a user falling victim to a phishing attack. During each login flow, 2FB can verify that a given web page is loaded over HTTPS with a valid cert and that the domain matches the domain for which a 2FA secret was initially configured. Only then will the 2FA code be injected into the page. 2FB cannot be tricked by pages that look like the expected site and are actually on some bogus domain.

I am working on a security white paper to explain 2FB’s architecture and address the concerns you raised and several others. My email is in my profile if you’re interested in continuing the discussion, which I would find incredibly valuable!

Finally, I am curious which specific portions of NIST 800-63B are you referring to in your comment?

[1] https://authy.com/blog/how-the-authy-two-factor-backups-work...

[2] http://www.zdnet.com/article/google-prompt-you-can-now-just-...

conorgil145··on FreeOTP – An open-source solution for authentication soft tokens
I have read about this a little from the user POV, but I have not yet used Authy to build a service which provides 2FA, so I do not understand the details enough to really talk intelligently about the differences.

I do recall reading that Authy uses SHA256 and 7 digit codes instead of SHA1 and 6 digit codes like Google Authenticator (cannot find source). However, the Key URI Format documentation in the Google Authenticator project [1] does have optional support for SHA256 and configurable number of digits, so Google Authenticator could support that too if it wanted to.

[1] https://github.com/google/google-authenticator/wiki/Key-Uri-...

conorgil145··on FreeOTP – An open-source solution for authentication soft tokens
1passowrd has a good blog post explaining why using 1password for TOTP is not 2FA [1].

If someone gets into your password vault, then they have both authentication factors: your passwords (what you know) and your 2FA secrets (theoretically, what you have).

[1] https://blog.agilebits.com/2015/01/26/totp-for-1password-use...

conorgil145··on FreeOTP – An open-source solution for authentication soft tokens
I have used FreeOTP, Google Authenticator, Authy, and LastPass Authenticator. Of those options, I use Authy because it is also free and has hands down the best UX.

However, I think that current solutions for soft token two factor authentication (2FA) generally do not provide a good user experience for end users. When trying to login and get work done, it is frustrating that the typical 2FA login flow requires a context switch to a completely different device, especially one that will likely distract you with non-work related notifications and content.

That is why I am working on a project called Two Factor Buddy (2FB), which integrates directly with the browser to automate the entry of 2FA codes during the login process with all of your favorite third party services (e.g. Github, Google, AWS, Stripe, etc). This means you can maintain the 2FA level of security on your accounts and get to work more quickly.

If 2FB sounds interesting, check out a short screencast of what the login flow looks like using 2FB [1] and add yourself to the email list [2] if you want to get notified when you can try it out.

[1] https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxEuMs2jIxWfVDlMTmRHTExQSG...

[2] http://eepurl.com/c7OBwj

conorgil145··on Managify – Content Management Platform for Projects, Notes, Bookmarks, Passwords
Some of the same exact questions that I had. It seems like an odd combination of features for one company to tackle. Building a secure password manager, for example, is non trivial and requires some serious security/crypto knowledge. Do I trust the same company to build a password manager as one who builds something to manage my bookmarks? Of course, the same engineers could be capable of both, but it seems like an unexpected combination.
conorgil145··on Dear Amazon, We Picked Your New Headquarters for You
I lived in Denver for the past 2 years and agree with this assessment as well. The light rail has expanded lines in recent years to the airport and I have read that the plan is for that expansion to continue to eventually link Denver and Boulder. Amazon could build their huge complex anywhere in that area and workers could take public transportation to the office.
conorgil145··on Ask HN: What feature would you want the web to “force” next, after HTTPS?
How would you possibly know which fingerprints to trust? Also, do you honestly think there is any hope for the average user to understand what that means and know what to trust and what not to trust? IMO, that is a massive step backwards in usability, which directly impacts the overall security of a given solution. If something is not usable, then people will figure out a way around it and security then goes out the window.

For example, if users were responsible for knowing which fingerprints to trust for a given website, they would most likely just click "ok, trust it" for everything. Then, you're overall security goes way down because now people are conditioned to click "accept" to everything, regardless of the impact.

conorgil145··on Ask HN: Is it safe to send credit card details via email (as WireX does)?
An email is like a postcard and every server which traffics it can read the full contents. The CC details are static and will not change once you receive them, so it is in effect sending the CC details to all MX servers that traffic the email and anyone that reads it can use your CC for anything they want. I would consider it an enormous glaring security issue.
conorgil145··on Ask HN: What's your working day like?
I just finished reading the book "Vagabonding: An Uncommon Guide to the Art of Long-Term World Travel", which basically promotes this exact train of thought. You may enjoy reading it if you are not already familiar.
conorgil145··on Show HN: Scip – Save money on Uber and Lyft with location arbitrage
Sounds very cool and useful, but I think the site needs to do a better job of explaining exactly how it works.

Do you need access to my Uber/Lyft credentials or app? Does this integrate with Uber/Lyft apps somehow, or does it find a ride and then hand it off to one of those app? I assume that I still pay via Uber/Lyft, is that right? Do you make any money from me using this app; if yes, how?

Congrats on getting something out there! I'd love to see it on Android so I could try it :)

conorgil145··on Ask HN: What are you working on?
Thanks for the background on Duo.

I'll definitely reach out once we have a beta to demo. We'd love to get some feedback from folks outside our immediate team!

conorgil145··on Ask HN: What are you working on?
Ah! Duo is definitely one of the incumbents in the space that we looked at during our competitive analysis. As far as I understand it, your push based 2FA solution only works for sites which use Duo as the 2FA provider. Is that correct?

I am hoping to build a solution which has a similar sounding UX to Duo Push, but works for any site that currently implements 2FA without requiring the site to make any changes at all. I think that this will provide more comprehensive coverage of sites that developers and other users interact with on a regular basis. For example, Github will not update their backend to use a 2FA service that I write because they already have a good solution in place, but by using a browser extension I can build the UX that I want without any changes required on Github's end.

Admittedly, I had some trouble getting started with actually trying out Duo to get a feel for the UX, but I will definitely have to check out the features that you provide to see what competitors in the space are already doing.

I agree that Backup & Restore is another prime part of the 2FA UX that needs some TLC. We've got some thoughts on improving that as well, but the first step is to nail the UX of actually being productive with 2FA and then come back to add enhancements.

Here is to some healthy competition! :)

conorgil145··on Ask HN: What are you working on?
Yup, you nailed it. That is exactly the plan. Any thoughts on that approach? Do you think you might be willing to update your current 2FA workflow to the one described above?
conorgil145··on Ask HN: What are you working on?
As johnmaguire2013 guessed, we will have a browser extension which will request a 2FA code from the mobile app. The mobile app will receive a push notification and ask the user whether they would like to allow or deny the request for a second factor of authentication. The user only needs to click one button on their phone and the 2FA code is securely sent to the browser where everything else related to submitted the 2FA code can be automated.

The browser extension can integrate with any site that currently supports 2FA without any integration or changes required on the part of the sites.

Let me know if you have any more questions! Do you think you be willing to change your 2FA workflow to the one described above? If no, what are some of your concerns, thoughts, etc? Any and all feedback is appreciated!

conorgil145··on Ask HN: What are you working on?
Project: I am working on improving the 2 factor authentication (2FA) user experience for end users.

Problem: 2FA is an east way to drastically improve one's security posture with many sites (e.g. AWS, Github, Google, Stripe, etc), but it is still an incredibly annoying user experience that gets worse the more sites you use it with.

- When I pick up my phone to enter a 2FA code, I often get distracted by an email, text, or other notification. I'll put my phone down a minute later and think "what was I doing? Oh right, I need that 2FA code".

- It is also annoying to visually identify the correct site/account combo in my list of 2FA codes because I use many online services and may have multiple accounts at each one (e.g. AWS).

- Though some apps have a better UI presentation of 2FA codes, the classic Google Authenticator app shows all of the codes in a single list and I would often put in the incorrect code from a row above/below what I intended because it was difficult to visually keep track of the correct row as I transcribe the 2FA code into my desktop browser.

- It is annoying when the 2FA code changes while I am entering it in my desktop browser. Often, sites will accept the previous 2FA code as well, but if I only entered the first 3 digits and don't recall the last 3 digits, then I have to start over entering the new 6 digit 2FA code.

I am working on a new user experience which replaces these pitfalls and annoyances with the ability to simply click a button on your phone as your second factor of authentication. This workflow is compatible with any site that currently implements 2FA (e.g. AWS, Github, Stripe, etc, etc) and provides the same level of security as using another 2FA app such as Google Authenticator, Authy, etc.

It would be really encouraging/useful if you could leave a comment explaining why you might find this new 2FA UX useful or not! Thanks.

conorgil145··on Ask HN: What are you working on?
I would have found this incredibly useful when I was doing research to understand stock options that I have had in the past. Sounds like a really cool project. Keep at it!

Also, to get a more accurate estimation, you will have to know the amount of investment in each round and the permissions that come with different classes of shares. For example, liquidation preferences and investors deciding whether they will convert to common shares or not, etc.

conorgil145··on Ask HN: What are you working on?
I worked for an encrypted email company for ~4 years and I'm pretty familiar with the space.

How do you solve the user experience problem associated with PGP in terms of sharing keys? You cannot send an encrypted email to someone you have never communicated with before, right?

Do you have a blog or anything to follow?

conorgil145··on Secret Management with Vault
Why did you decide not to use Vault? Did it fail to meet a requirement? Over kill? Learning curve? Other?
conorgil145··on Show HN: Comparing 176,077 tech salaries to median household income
I would be incredibly interested in data for all tech salaries.
conorgil145··on Ask HN: Those making over $1K/month on side projects, what did you make?
How much time do you spend to generate the $1500? Is this your full time job, or do you do it on the side? Do you have any plans to scale up somehow, or are you content with what you have going right now?
conorgil145··on Ask HN: Those making over $1K/month on side projects, what did you make?
I clicked the link and it was definitely not obvious how much it cost. I even clicked to add it to Slack and it didn't mention cost or anything. Pretty reasonable question.
conorgil145··on Ask HN: Those making over $1K/month on side projects, what did you make?
Thanks for sharing park.io, I'd never heard of it. Do you have any links to related reading? I'd love to hear about how it was built, how profitable it is, etc, etc.
conorgil145··on Investing for Geeks
As some others in this thread have said (and Patrick discusses in the post), there are lots of things you can do to much more directly impact your change of becoming rich and retiring well/early than optimizing your investments: get a really good salary and don't spend a lot of money. One blog which I have read is Mr Money Mustache [1], which focuses on those same concepts. Many of the posts are good reads.

[1]: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/all-the-posts-since-the-begin...

conorgil145··on Ask HN: Who is hiring? (September 2016)
We are also hiring for a Senior UX Designer.

We might be a good match if…

* You’re a generalist with a sweet spot, or a specialist looking to broaden your skills.

* You value craftsmanship.

* You’ve shipped product.

* You think beyond the ‘how’ and help to define the ‘what.’

* You can think and talk about the bottom line.

* You thrive in user validation.

* You are a cross-platform zen master.

Please see the full description and application on our website: https://www.virtru.com/careers/.

conorgil145··on Ask HN: Who is hiring? (September 2016)
We are also hiring for a Senior/Lead QA Analyst. Specific responsibilities include:

* Write/update test plans and test cases

* Defect Management including providing feedback on defect prioritization

* Triaging defects that come in through our contractors and oversee their work

* Perform manual tests across all of our platforms, including cross platforms

* Help with managing releases and giving approval for releases

* Develops test strategies, test approaches for performance and automation events

* Suggest and implement process improvements that will accomplish team, department and business goals.

* Striving for efficiency, consistency and effectiveness

Please apply via our posting on Indeed: http://www.indeed.com/viewjob?t=seniorlead+qa+analyst&jk=974...

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