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dfrage

266 karma · joined February 12, 2019

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dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
It makes a difference because Intel is a more attractive and more consequential target for researchers. AMD's market share in servers is minuscule and even declining a bit as of 19Q1 (?), and modest but increasing nicely in notebooks and desktops https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19916279, while IBM's POWER and mainframe systems are expensive to very expensive to access.

ARM is actually a good target with a number of their newest designs using out-of-order speculative execution with Spectre vulnerabilities and their owning mobile space outside of notebooks, one of the newest even being vulnerable to Meltdown, but the significant headline worthy instances tend to come in much more locked down devices. Speed is also an issue, everything else being equal, the faster the chip, the faster data exfiltration proofs of concept will work.

dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
Market share is a good answer, in x86 space alone per https://www.extremetech.com/computing/291032-amd-gains-marke... which I found without putting much effort into it, AMD's share in servers is negligible and even dropped in the last quarter. On the other hand mobile and especially desktop are rising smartly, but still somewhat modest. IoT is excluded, and AMD could be doing well there to the extent anyone's using x86 for that, and there's also (quasi) embedded like network gear.

So the cloud vendors are 97% minimum Intel, they're exquisitely vulnerable both technically and reputationally to these bugs, the stakes are existential for them and they have a lot of money they can throw at the problem, whereas the users of notebooks and desktops are a much more diffuse interest.

As I've mentioned many times in these discussions today, everyone had Spectre issues, and everyone but AMD has Meltdown ones. The more recent vulnerabilities are Intel only because they're using what was learned from those first two to attack Intel specific features like the SGX enclave.

dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
A friend and coworker of mine had a saying "Speed Kills" about trying too hard to make things fast while keeping the system robust. You most certainly can make more secure systems, as the merely superscalar and less intense CPUs are, but they're significantly slower.

All depends on your threat model; to take one extreme, if you're crunching numbers with your own optimized numeric code, the issue of untrusted code of "random JavaScript off the net" is not an issue. And I doubt many mainframes are used to casually browse the net ... I certainly hope not at the same time they run the night's financial transactions!

dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
No out-of-order speculative execution, no bugs of this exact sort, expect maybe you'll find something in the odd corners of special features. As far as I know (don't follow them much) Atoms are based on the Pentium super-scalar architecture, which is a "supercharged 486" that allows the CPU to do more than one operation in parallel on different execution engines.

Per Wikpedia, "The Pentium has two datapaths (pipelines) that allow it to complete two instructions per clock cycle in many cases. The main pipe (U) can handle any instruction, while the other (V) can handle the most common simple instructions." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P5_(microarchitecture) )

HT uses two instruction decoders to keep more busy a set of execution engines, suppose you had the above set of 2 execution datapaths (that may be improved on these Atoms), and couldn't do two operations at a time from one instruction stream, but the other could use the unused datapath.

dfrage··on Intel Process Technology Update: 10nm Server Products in 1H 2020, 7nm in 2021
Semiaccurate's theory, based on their impression that only 1-2 fabs are dedicated to 10nm, is that it has some of the things they're planning on using in 7nm, and they might as well make some chips to sell while they debug them.
dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
> I don't think there have ever been an OoO CPU without speculation.

To the extent I've looked at it, without reading original documents, the original OoO design that current systems are based on, the IBM System 360/Models 91 and 95's floating point unit using Tomasulo's algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomasulo_algorithm didn't extend to speculative execution.

No doubt because gates were dear, implemented with discrete transistors, and that processor was a vanity project of Tom Watson Jr's. And memory was slow, core except for NASA's two 95's with 2 MiB of thin film memory at the bottom, and cache was still a couple of years out, introduced with the 360/Model 85. OoO becomes compelling when you have a fast and unpredictable memory hierarchy, as we started to have in a big way in the 1990s when we returned to this technique.

dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
As I understand it, the Intel only vulnerabilities, Foreshadow/L1TF, and this set which I've not looked at the details of yet, are targeting specific Intel features, and there's no reason to believe a similar focus on the other companies' products wouldn't also find unique problems.

For example, the first version of Foreshadow went after the SGX enclave. Given how widespread Meltdown and Spectre bugs are, there's absolutely no reason to believe that the other vendors don't have similar unique problems.

dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
Maybe because Intel has shipped a thousand more SKUs and millions more CPUs with Meltdown than ARM, for which the Cortex-A75 was a new design, and IBM, which doesn't ship huge numbers of either POWER or mainframe CPUs??
dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
Erm, check out Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meltdown_(security_vulnerabili... and follow the links? Meltdown is CVE-2017-5754, see: https://developer.arm.com/support/arm-security-updates/specu... where as I recall ARM initially described the Cortex-A75 as having a "variant", but now just lumps it in with the CVE. And the IBM info is also there, POWER7+ through POWER9, and per Red Hat, mainframe/System Z.
dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
Maybe be more alliterative and title it Tomasulo's Algorithm Considered Tempting? Because as far as I have found without reading original documents, its development and use in the IBM System 360/Models 91 and 95 was only but fully out-of-order on the floating point engine, they didn't have the gates, implemented with discrete transistors, to go further to speculative, or include any scalar hardware.

Hitting diminishing returns on caches with an ever increasing gate budget is I believe prompted this second generation starting in the 1990s which adds speculative execution, which the algorithm with all those extra hidden registers really invites you to do.

dfrage··on MDS: Microarchitectural Data Sampling side-channel vulnerabilities in Intel CPUs
Foreshadow/L1TF is the only prior problem of this nature that is unique to Intel. Meltdown bugs were also found in ARM and IBM POWER and mainframe designs, and Specture hits all of those and AMD as well.
dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
Dan Luu didn't note that Meltdown goes all the way back to their first out-of-order speculative execution design, the Pentium Pro in 1995. I note that ARM, and both of IBM's architectures, POWER and mainframe, also had Meltdown issues, and everyone including AMD "enjoys" Spectre bugs, so named because they'll be haunting us for a very long time.
dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-sharing

Time sharing was very big in the 1970s, and non-OS/VM methods of sharing mainframes for batch processing were also big at times I'm less sure of.

Inviting complete randoms to routinely run untrusted code in your own security domain, as we do with browsers, that's "new". And thus the popularity of NoScript and uMatrix.

dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
And ARM had one design that had a Meltdown variant, and both of IBMs', POWER and mainframe as well. Every vendor with speculative out-of-order designs is vulnerable to Spectre.
dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
But they are, ARM to both a Meltdown variant and Spectre, as well IBM's POWER and mainframe chips, and AMD to Spectre.
dfrage··on ZombieLoad: Cross Privilege-Boundary Data Leakage on Intel CPUs
> In the x86 space, Meltdown absolutely was down to one company

Serious weasel wording, outside of x86 space every other high end architecture also had Meltdown issues, ARM, and IBM's POWER and mainframe designs.

dfrage··on Walmart announces next-day delivery, firing back at Amazon
You joke, but with the recent update they do have similar design aesthetics. If you're already a happy Walmart physical store customer that's perfectly OK, "familiar" is a good thing, even if it's not as attractive as you'd like.

I personally wouldn't say the design aesthetic for either is "attractive", but they're pretty clean and functional, and that is worth a lot. Walmart.com transactions are now a bit easier than Amazon, before you factor in the tremendous amount of effort the latter requires to avoid counterfeits. Walmart.com search is a lot better once you get the right terms, and turn off 3rd parties which they make trivial.

dfrage··on Walmart announces next-day delivery, firing back at Amazon
There's some forcing for sure, but they already had a lot of the hard parts in place when they started the process. I've witnessed since the fall of 2016 their sending me many packages from various locations to almost always shipping one package, and without any promises many of those packages then and now arrive the next day if I order them in the morning.
dfrage··on Walmart announces next-day delivery, firing back at Amazon
My goodness, they sell a bunch: https://www.walmart.com/search/?cat_id=0&facet=retailer%3AWa... (substitute amd for intel in that query if you prefer) including a $1,629 Ryzen Threadripper $70 cheaper than Newegg, free 2 day delivery or local store pickup. The multi-thousand dollar Xeons seem to be more in the receive next week category, but a couple of the most expensive 18 or 28 core, $3K plus or minus, are 2 day, at or just a bit more expensive than what Newegg is charging for them.
dfrage··on Walmart announces next-day delivery, firing back at Amazon
Possible evidence they could be thinking about this: a few minutes ago I filled out a survey of their's about my last Walmart.com purchase, and one of the questions asked was if I, or an immediate family member had a Sam's Club membership.
dfrage··on Walmart announces next-day delivery, firing back at Amazon
> you have to just look at the ~30% that is direct from Amazon.

Except due to commingling you might get something from a 3rd party Fulfilled by Amazon instead of Amazon's supply chain.

> And with first hand experience with Amazon's Vendor program they go further than a lot of other retailers in pushing costs onto their vendors such as making them eat returns etc.

I know Walmart is very severe with their vendors, do you believe Amazon is worse?

dfrage··on Walmart announces next-day delivery, firing back at Amazon
I'm also in flyover country and have found the same to be true, aside from selection. But the products they do directly offer (it's easy to remove 3rd parties from your searches) come from their own supply chain which they really care about, the prices are almost always better than Amazon's, the shipping is fast, and free if you buy at least $35 per purchase, and they pack the boxes with a fair amount of care.

The latter detail was the last straw for me and my Prime membership due to Amazon switching to pro forma padding by just throwing in a few air pillows. Between that and all the last mile delivery issues others are reporting, its clear Amazon is seriously pinching pennies in fulfillment without caring how much business and extra expense that costs them. Add in the counterfeit problem and it's hard to imagine how much damage the brand is suffering.

dfrage··on An Analysis of Pre-Installed Android Software [pdf]
Just make sure the whole combo can call your country's emergency number: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19479636 The Reddit link describes the the details for scheduling a 911 test call in the US, and as the link details, this failure has also been known to happen with stock phones.
dfrage··on Oracle Wallet Master Key Lost
If you can't do a full end-to-end backup and bare metal restore, you don't really have a backup. If this is indeed a "quirk" of Oracle Cloud, it's not fit for purpose.
dfrage··on Oracle Wallet Master Key Lost
Exactly. Print out the whole thing, doesn't matter how many characters if you're trying to recover from something this drastic, and follow the general backup rule of "If you have 1 copy, you have 0, if you have 2, you have 1...." Put copies in different flood plains, ideally different parts of your country or the world.

While its not always possible, it's a good idea to use at least two completely different backup methods, avoiding single points of failure like in this case. For example, use a logical volume manager to make frozen copies of your filesystems, and back those up using something low level.

dfrage··on Intel’s new boss wants to teach the chipmaker new tricks
I see simplifications in the the first six paragraphs, for example ignoring its leading role in commercially available DRAM starting around the same time it launched the 4004, but that's not very relevant after they exited the market in the 1980s due to Japanese fabs achieving much higher yields. But nothing I'd outright label "incorrect".
dfrage··on Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019
> How much would it possibly cost for Google to just keep the Works with Nest Apis on maintenance mode?

The cost is basically infinite as Google is internally structured, maintenance on anything but a monster service is a career dead end. It would likely be worse for an acquired service like Nest, the experience gained wouldn't transfer over to Google's back end.

dfrage··on Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019
Unless the service is monstrous like search or GMail, working on maintaining existing product infrastructure is a career dead end in the company, the game is to be part of a project launch. And Google's back end stuff constantly changes, so significant amount of maintenance is needed to keep anything running indefinitely, another reason for all the things they've killed.

Maybe the conversion of Nest's infrastructure was internally viewed as more maintenance than new project, so it didn't get much in the way of resources? Google palpably doesn't care about brand damage so that's not a consideration.

dfrage··on Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019
Just pumping the muscles in your legs will decrease the potential for blood clots forming in them, according to a recent HN topic.
dfrage··on Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019
Interesting; neon bulbs have the advantage of working on (US) line voltage without anything else needed, sticking an LED in there requires more stuff. Both could have been squashed in the US market due to Federal energy regulations. Or that clear section could be for the GFI version of the outlet, the few years old one in my bathroom has a tiny clear window for a green light when it's not tripped.
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