271 karma · joined March 11, 2023
Your points are all non-falsifiable and are the checklist of russians propaganda (here I'm ignoring the ramblings about trump, saddam, etc.). You mentioned NATO expansion, Azov, "ethnic russians" being threathened, CIA coup, gonzalo lira, and so forth. You forgot to mention biolabs. I use a condescending tone because I eventually realized this was a lost cause and I'm just writing an answer for whoever lost soul ends up reading this thread.
Here's proof I'm in Ukraine, it's some random shit and a corner of my residential card. I'd rather not take a picture of my passport because it would show my nationality, which is Western but which I'd rather not disclose unnecessarily. https://imgur.com/a/dGR5rro
>you should've realized the west are vile scum
>Ukraine wasn't even a country back when this all started
>Russia finally bites back, but all the pushing for half a century you ignore
Doesn't get more pacifist than that. This is a worthless discussion, let's just stop. I've taken a look at your comment history and you seem very deeply involved into american polarizing politics like heads having to roll because of COVID lockdowns, I quote, "Heads have to roll". I'm convinced that what happened with COVID was stupid and government people should be more accountable for the fuck up, but looking at your post history you are a prime example of what Yuri Bezmenov was talking about. I bet you are this close to writing that the USA needs a revolution.
After bringing up points like Euromaidan being a coup, Saddam and the petrodollar, you are now bringing in shit like Trump, "elites in the west", and finally the Azov battalion and the Ukrainians doing violence on ethnic Russians, you are bringing out the points of "we must invade because the Ukrainians are bombarding Donetsk children and they are nazis" of russian propaganda. An attentive reader would have noticed that you said "ethnic russians", de facto stating that there is a chunk of Ukraine that is actually russia and must be saved.
I'll let you in on something: the fact that I feel so strongly about these fucking savages that invaded Ukraine and useful idiots gushing down russian propaganda is because I am a Westerner that lives in Ukraine and I've been living here since before the war. Part of the acquired family I have from my partner is from Donetsk and the fact that you bring up Azov and this ethnic russian thing is the cherry on top, the perfect piece of bullshit that me, actually living in Ukraine, is perfectly equipped to call you on about.
>For every atrocity you mention I can find comparisons from the West
No, you cannot. Russia, from its imperial times, has brought upon the world the worst depraved and terrible crimes, nazi concentration camps are a walk in the park compared to the joys of the russian empire and later the soviet union. And still, we're talking about 2024, these things are being done right now.
>I'm a pacifist and want peace and cooperation, not constant conflict.
You aren't, you are a useful idiot who paves the way for the demoralization of your nation and its later destruction
What disgusts me the most is that you seem to be unable to cede on the point that what russia did is wrong. You even mention that brutalities are okay because apparently, somebody else did them in the past. Russia invading is okay because trump/saddam/elites in the west/euromaidan/crimean fleet/azov battalion/whatever other shit you gobbled up on the internet. But hey, you are a pacifist.
It is you sending out a volley non falsifiable claims as an argument that justifies the invasion. You might as well tell me that PG is behind everything, I can't disprove that.
>Ironic claim given the NATO expansion
What aboutism.
>This is the illusion we're being sold
Yeah alright. Please don't bring groupthink and cancel culture into the discussion, it's really not pertinent, you are 1 minute away from going "the west has fallen". And I agree with you that there are many things to improve, to say the least. Still, even if the Western free speech, free market, etc. is all an illusion, Ukrainians have the right to pick that rather than the russkiy mir.
>We need to hold our leaders and ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies
I agree. Raping, torturing, pillaging, genociding, should be unthinkable. Doing that is giving up on being human, imo.
>and we're fine with entire families being wiped out with the push of a button
Who's we?
>not agitate against the "orcs" like they're animals
Who's agitating? It seems to me that Western media has been even too kind to russians. The most terrible deeds that by sheer luck emerge and become public are quickly forgotten.
>anyone paying attention
I guess the only one paying attention is you, not sure what you are paying attention to tho, since you seem unable to state something even just remotely close to the fact that russians are doing something wrong. I wish you and your family will never have to live under the threat of the russkiy mir, but, usually, textbook useful idiots and demoralized people (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErKTVdETpw&ab_channel=Nicho...) tend to be far away from any danger in this day and age, with somebody else paying the price.
This doesn't matter, let's just discuss facts.
>I don't believe one side is the good side
I believe that not all sides are created equal. I'd rather have my family be captured by NATO forces than russian ones, what about you? I think the term "orc" is even too kind when it comes to people that come to rape and pillage, with no distinction for age.
You are muddying the water with all these implications about Euromaidan, CIA coups, fleet in Crimea, Saddam leaving the petrodollar, the US annexing bases etc. Let's state the cold facts: russia invaded Ukraine with a genocidal intent that has been shown with actions AND statements.
Let's say the choice is between East and West rather than about independence. It looks like Ukrainians chose West, that doesn't give russia any right or justification to invade. There is nothing you can say that justifies what russians have done to Ukrainians (again).
Russia wants to roleplay as an empire but it has literally nothing to offer to its would-be subjects. Are you really surprised about people preferring freedom of expression, free markets, a possible EU integration and the security of NATO rather than being part of the russkiy mir? All ex-subjects of russia would rather die than be at their mercy again.
>but instead because they have been raised in an orc fertilising envirtonment
I mean, after centuries of repression, gulags, etc. I'm sure either the culture or the society could have been affected? Let's drop the orc term and substitute it with "wish Ukrainian genocide".
To conclude, Russians are not "wishers of Ukrainian genocide" because they are born that way, but instead because they have been raised in a "wishers of Ukrainian genocide" fertilising envirtonment.
Now that I've sanitized the sentence, could you point out why I should care about how russians have come to be this way rather than caring about stopping them to avoid the destruction of Ukraine?
>We like to believe we're on the good side in the west but I don't
If you believe russia is on the good side you need to be checked in, but I'm sure you live in a place that wouldn't be impacted by the russkiy mir spilling over and going on some more. Allow me the arrogance to suggest a good intro material to understand why your comment is completely wrong: Timothy Snyder: The Making of Modern Ukraine.
>I like to hold my side to a higher standard than the "enemy".
Same, I can't believe some people would shrug off the kind of atrocities russians brought to Ukraine (again, let's ignore past history). It looks like most russians are even supporting it. The fact is that there are two types of Europeans: the ones who didn't experience russians subjugating their country and the ones who would rather die fighting.
It's very easy to look at what's happening from afar and call the term "orc" dehumanizing, and yes I share the opinion that being too confident in being on the good side is wrong, but we must also not fall into moral relativism were we see a horde of barbarians blackmailing the world with nuclear weapons and we are worried about using the term orc.
Humans are born with equal rights (at least in some countries) but aren't equal in capacity, character, judgment, and so on.
In my opinion, this is the result of aggressive quantization for (understandably) savings
And no, it's not always "it's just profit", sometimes it's a shortsighted chase of the next stock value high with complete disregard for the future since lack of accountability is pretty much built-in into the higher classes of managers
And what about the install fees? Let's say my studio fails but people keep installing because of piracy or any arbitrary reason, am I going to get charged for the remaining of my life? It's just a shocking move
No offense but the fact that someone on HN could get to this conclusion is rather shocking to me. Western Europe has plenty of russian corruption and I'm afraid the ongoing war has unearthed only a fraction of it.