1,394 karma · joined May 5, 2009
boboTjones everywhere else
IMO, the messiness of hiring processes and the lack of adoption of work sample testing have a lot to do with each other. One of the questions I regularly ask in interviews (and have for a long time) is, "What are the first 5 things you'll have me work on?" During the last round of interviews, no one I talked to could answer that. I even had a couple of interviewers who didn't even know the name of the hiring manager or the position. Then you have other artificial filters like preferred certifications where the assumption seems to be that whatever training was required to pass can be mapped onto every organisation... or that simply possessing a cert magically grants insight into how most companies do stuff. The point is that companies don't really seem to have a good idea of what they're actually hiring for, but they get by hiring more senior people who have enough experience (hopefully) that they can figure it out on their own.
One of the things we discussed early on was avoiding having Starfighter turn into a certification process and maybe that's one of the reasons why we stumbled around a bit. I am aware that certifications have their place, but they're not really a substitute for industry experience and they definitely aren't a guarantee that a candidate can quickly figure out how a company's tech is glued together. IMO that's the power of work sample testing: you're giving a candidate a challenge where they can demonstrate aptitude. But if you don't know what actually needs to be done, you can't create that challenge, much less a rubric for describing expectations.
Someone shared this post with me because I was complaining in a Slack about how the theme of my career seems to be not getting hired for the position but later getting hired to fix the things that were fucked up by the person they did hire. Begs the question, is hiring really that difficult?
This post is pretty old, and I'm curious why it's been put up here today and what sort of conversation mmphosis was hoping for. To me, it reads as a half-considered opinion. Could it be that the siren song of ambition and personal legacy is a nice little perk if you can afford it? Is there a counter argument to be made that if you can't keep your personal shit together, you obviously lack the discipline required to turn those deep-thinky thoughts into a legacy? Are we taking digs at how the progress 2-3 productive coders make in the early, dark hours of a startup loses steam as it tries to scale? Anyone of these conversations overlooks a pretty crucial idea, which is potentially a more productive conversation in itself: how do we find and conscript those people who will fix our printers, run our errands, and generally work to move objects out of our way while we follow our delight? Do we have to occasionally treat their fiddly petitions for reassurance with respect, as a sort of payment for their efforts or do we simply assume that being around greatness is enough?
I'm going to correct you, because it's relevant. Mehta says, "but only if it is actually accretive to the strategy." I think the accretive is important here, because one of my observations on how we were doing it wrong was that there were no stated goals for security against the company as a whole. This made it seem like each teams' OKRs were a chaotic free-for-all. Intuitively, the goals for security as a whole should be based on the overall needs of the company, divided up across the appropriate teams. These teams will have the tribal knowledge to write the best roadmap, determine who will own the workflow that the project generates on completion and generally know how to scope each task.
Going to listen to the podcast now. Maybe I will have more to say after. Cheers.
1. Misery is a function of expectations management. As is said, every relationship is different. Expectations could range everywhere from
"You are an adult and this is your house, too. Clean up after yourself like an adult who owns a house."
to what is common in our house,
"Housework gets done when it gets done. Fortunately we live in an area that doesn't have roaches."
It is notable that the author does little more than speculate on his wife's expectations. After that many disagreements, not fully understanding the other person's expectations is a big red flag. We can argue all day long as to whose responsibility the understanding is; that is also a big red flag.
2. It's not about the work you do, it's about the work you make. This one is a big deal to me, since I grew up in a family that expected me to clean up after them. All the laundry, dishes, yard and additional housework was my job starting when I was 10. And no matter how well or poorly I did, chances were high that I was going to get hit for something. Note that the author does not provide any of this context. His wife very well may have been looking forward to spending the rest of her life with a partner who was an adult who didn't leave crap laying around, knowing that it would somehow magically reappear clean in its designated storage location. Or she could just be uptight.
3. No relationship of any kind is fire and forget. It is a daily commitment to a complicated matrix of rules and accommodations, all of which has a cost. If a person does the cost/benefit analysis of doing this work and decides it's not worth it, hurt feelings and financial implications aside, it's not worth it. This is not only true of marriages, it's also the case for friendships, family, employers and coworkers. We're making hundreds of these calculations every day. It's a thing we do to feel safe. When the benefit does not outweigh the cost, you don't feel safe. That's bad for everyone's health.
4. It takes 5 positive experiences of someone to reconcile one negative one. I think I read another comment that was adjacent to this. I see this as sort of an economy of deposits and withdrawals, and that's not a particularly original analogy. At the end of the day, we are social animals; both small and large gestures of allegiance foster an environment of safety and comfort. Our lizard brain needs these things.
5. Capuchin monkeys prefer grapes. Fairness is a reflex. It is not rational and does not respond to logic. Though I can respect, "I might want to use it again."
This is where large companies might trip and fall, if they expect their existing security analysts/teams to do this (or, as you say, if they try to offload it onto developers or ops people, even ones who are more interested in security). I don't like how this sounds, what I am about to type, but the majority of security people -- particularly the ones at the level where they are hired to run QA-type audits -- do not know how to review code. It really does make me uncomfortable to say this, but if that's the rock, the hard place is how many times I've had to tell someone they really need to learn to code if they want to "work in security."
So when you say, "good security people," what you mean is people who can read and write code, and also have enough experience to know when that code can be used in a way that the original author did not intend to. It's almost as if there's a misconception that being able to read and write code is what you do if you're a dev or devops. This mindset is odd to me in so many ways. It's like saying, "I don't need to know how to use a screwdriver or a hammer because I'm not a carpenter." Even better, someone who understands what it feels like to be under some pressure to roll out changes where there might not have been a lot of time to consider malicious behavior. Someone who has your back.
Just yesterday or the day before, I had this inexplicable crisis where I was concerned about the value I am providing. It's gone now. Thanks!
I've learned a lot about the mechanism of establishing friendships, though. As niftich points out above, I had the tendency to consider friendly encounters as one-offs; more specifically, "Oh, that happened. How pleasant." And then go through the mental acrobatics of wondering if the person would like to continue being friendly or [s]he was simply being polite. So the idea of "broken fantasy world" works in reverse here: I have a broken core belief where I don't understand the value someone gets out of hanging out with me.
Just a week ago, friends came over to celebrate my birthday and watch the WFTDA champs. Another friend who is not part of that circle remarked on something that hadn't really clicked for me -- I must be a good friend (and loved) because my house was full of people. So the feeling of loneliness, somehow baked into a bunch of erroneous core beliefs, also masks reality and hinders the formation of relationships.