phenkdo

well played

Almost the entire G Suite (sheets, docs, slides) - except probably for gmail -sucks.

All of that is very likely true, but I was arguing that the Argentine military was no match, not even close to a match to the UK Armed forces. The outcome was never in doubt, just casualty counts on both sides.

I somehow doubt this,..even if the UK aircraft carrier were sunk, the British armed forces had _plenty_ of capabilities to bring to bear. While It wasn't quite a US Vs Iraq situation, it was very lopsided in terms of training, equipment, morale and finances.

how does this compare to milvus?

cough blood and soil cough

By and large your arguments are that of every entitled spoilt brat ever, who wants mommy & daddy to come rescue them. Get over it! One way or another this is going to happen, the workers you refer to are unemployable in every sense of the word. If not h1b then offshoring or relocation of businesses.

America can't have the taxpayer keep bailing out these "American workers" incompetence, lethargy and overriding entitlement. IMO these "American workers" are trying to sell a bicycle without wheels, for the price of a Rolls, and playing the "buy american" card. Ha! Now why didn't we think of that before?

So you can profit now from it.

"the devil quoteth the scriptures" - shakespeare

-xo

I think the fundamental premise on which your arguments are based is flawed.

1. Those jobs don't belong to "American workers". "American workers" : <wink> <wink> now, don't we all know what that means?

2. Said "american workers" have no guaranteed claims or rights to be employed in those jobs. The business no more owes you that job, than you owing them to work there. S/he is very welcome to find a different line of work, if they are inconvenienced. Just because you don't like something, doesn't make it illegal. Report fraud to the FBI/DOJ and Let the judicial system decide it.

3. To the extent the machinations you describe happen, they are no different from the VASTLY more prevalent resume padding, outright lies, outrageous salary asks and general brattish behavior by many "American workers". Should they be prosecuted too?

4. "American IT workers" are already among the highest paid professionals and have FULL + employment, and yet all they do is kvetch 24/7/365. These "victims" you describe, are trying to sell a bicycle - to put it mildly - for the price of a Rolls Royce, while the customer needs a Honda Civic ! And like every spoilt brat ever, throw a tantrum anytime they didn't get what they wanted.

5. If these american workers get off their entitlement high-horse, and stop wallowing in this sea of self-pity, they would be aware how mismatched their skills and compensation expectations are.

ps. i am a 3x entrepreneur, who used to believe in your ideas just as strongly, but my startup experience has changed my views on this subject.

IOW, entitlement.

"Nuance does go out the window when you or yours lose the means to support a family. "

Maybe they shouldn't have been in this profession at all and find a different line work. Jobs are not guarantees, you are not owed anything. If their job got h1b-ed then it doesn't need to exist. It's the typical dare-i-say, [mostly white american male] entitlement, that anytime they didn't get what they wished for, and <ka-boom>, the world's ending, h1b is worse than corona + isis combined! Welcome back to ground level folks.

"breaking the law" imho, that probably too strong a phrase. Sure - we can argue about what that proportion is - but i think h1b recruits are - like most things in life, normally distributed talent/salary wise. The bottom 2-3 sd should never have been issued visas. True that, but with that comes the better 1-2 sigma that starts businesses, does research in Univs and businesses.

Now IBM et al might not be doing what you like, but to accuse them of completely illegal behavior is a stretch & half. There are never any solutions, only trade-offs!

I too get what you are trying to accomplish. But the vast majority of anti-h1b crowd doesn't have anything even close to the reasoned arguments and critique you offered. The knee-jerk reaction is largely: h1b = cheap labor = takes away "my job" => I need to bay for Indian blood. Just watch Lou Dobbs or his ilk...

Like with many things today, nuance is all but non-existent in this argument.

It's strange how this "black and white" article seems to gloss over the fact that Asians (Indians/Chinese/ etc) who are also "non-white" and are the dominant labor force in tech.

Wonder how their experiences gibe with this article?

The "no-shortage-if-you-pay-enough" dog has caught up to the car, and now the proponents need to show the US citizens can indeed fill many of these positions.

I think it will be a unfortunate denouement for both industry and research.

People are looking for some rays of hope in these dark times, so perhaps the publication can be forgiven to hype up some local researcher's work.

have you read the article?

...and not to mention everything is interconnected in an economy. If food prices rise by x%, there is a cascade effect on the prices of everything, not just groceries.

I am not thrilled about the situation, but the alternative, unfortunately, is far worse. The people in Ukraine/Moldova etc. will go deeper into poverty, and people in the west will have to contend with sky-high inflation.

Again such a naive viewpoint, in an economy everything is interconnected. If the prices of groceries rise, there are knock-on effects on everything. Yep, EVERYTHING From healthcare to housing, to transport, and whatnot will rise many-x and this bravado will evaporate in the time you took to read this post.

Somehow I think your keyboard bravado will vanish once you start paying 60-70% of salary for just basic necessities. And even if I were to concede that you - presumably high paid tech workers - were willing & able, imagine the fate of the pensioners, bus drivers, retail workers...they barely make ends meet as it is.

do you also look forward to the 10x grocery shit-bill you will be stuck with?

At that pay rate, your grocery bill will rise 5x-10x and while that might not bother you, there are several people from whom that's a death knell.

The "no shortage if you pay enough" viewpoint is rather myopic. The same people will be crying hoarse when prices of even basic necessities increase 10x or more, and there are food riots and possibly starvation.

Many people in the west don't realize how good they have it

It's one of the "what-if" scenarios if Trump were to test positive. Would it convince his supporters to stop calling this "fake news", "hoax" etc?

Betteridge, please chime in.

The authors of the above article for example. Are you more qualified than them to dismiss them as "ridiculous"?

There are some credible voices skeptical of the current doomsday predictions from Dr. Fauci et al, vis-a-vis the national quarantine.

Unfortunately, this too has become a partisan political issue with dems for shutdown/quarantine, and republicans for opening up.

Very prescient and prophetic article

What you call "wage dumping" is what I would call wage extortion & salary gouging, borne out of good old entitlement arrogance.

Sauce for the goose == sauce for the gander.

It's not "simple", and it's definitely not "the market". It's the market as _you would like it to be_ , for salary-gouging.

I am one of the "evil" business owners you speak of, and there is no way I will pay the exorbitant salary expectations from (mostly) undeserving people. I would much rather outsource and hire people in Ukraine, Russia, etc. Sorry to break your heart, but If I pay $x then I would expect $ x+<delta> value from hiring someone, that's the core of any business.

To use your analogy, if I am trying to rent out a place, and it's basically a tent & a sleeping bag (which in the current job market it is) , I would focus on making it worthy of the asking price or lower my ask.

"underpaying" - as compared to who? Who gets to determine that?

It's very easy to scoff at "cheap labor" when in my experience it's far more often than not, the entitled , incompetents (they pair often) who complain. Just because someone feels entitled to a <£ some high number> salary means they are worthy of it. In fact, oftentimes not!

> "cheap staff" This seems to be the stock response anytime one mentions foreign workers.

Who gets to determine what's "cheap"? Look at it from the business' perspective, perhaps your asks are exorbitant, way too disproportionate to their abilities - salary-gouging by constricting supply - and end-up sinking the business.