philippejara

> It doesn't surprise me that a site that taunts people about reposting the Christchurch shooter's livestream should have trouble getting service. The fact I'm writing this from a throwaway shows the reality of the harrassment some people I know have suffered from this group.

This is extremely disingenuous. The request to take the video down came attached with a request to give them all the IPs of people from NZ, when the people in NZ were being liable for jailing by simply having the video in their possesion[0], i quote:

>While he said that those who spread the video in New Zealand risked arrest and imprisonment, he warned all New Zealanders that even innocent possession of the video was a crime. “If you have a record of it, you must delete it,” he said. “If you see it, you should report it. Possessing or distributing it is illegal and only supports a criminal agenda.”

The response to new zealand was great and deserved, and i'll cheer for it the same way i'd cheer for someone denying a request from saudi arabia or china or whatever other more authoritarian government trying to take shit down across borders

[0]: http://web.archive.org/web/20201111221018/https://www.nytime...

The harrassment campaigns that have no* paper trail back to kiwifarms, the forum that is public and anyone can archive at any time?

Ever since i've started to pay attention to kiwifarms from cloudflare dropping them i've been trying to get the evidence of any harassment coming from there and not being extremely looked down upon/banned and have come out almost empty handed. The scraps i've got are from chris chan in like 2013/2014?

This is the kind of dangerous "everyone knows that it is clear they do X thing hence there is no need for evidence".

Now to be fair I don't doubt harassment comes from individual kiwifarms users, maybe even organizing with other people somewhere else, but taking down the website will not change that, and guilt by association is a dangerous thing.

*none that I could find in the previous threads/most articles about it that is. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

> Mass shootings, suicides and rapes have happened because of the content of KF and ED.

Mass shootings and rapes? Ever since the cloudflare campaign when I began to pay attention to kiwifarms the set of things they have been clearly guilty of has been growing and the amount of minimally credible evidence to back said claims have taken an inverse path. Maybe ED? must admit I don't know much about ED.

> If you provide shelter for the racist, misogynist, homophobic, Nazi and automated weapons fanatic, then you deserve to be censored.

The website had 2 entire subforums[0] dedicated to both a very right wing figure and the whole america fist movement, as well as threads running in the hundreds/thousands mocking trump supporters, Qanon lunatics, jan 6th rioters and the list goes on. I'm not going to question the sheltering, but to assume that they were not mocked as anyone else is not really true. You did not claim that by the way, but I felt that this was worth mentioning. /pol/ has an order of magnitude worse content and I'm yet to see people wanting to seriously take them down.

The same thing with misogynist, i'm not sure. Women seemed to be a huge part of the website's base and there was an incel thread that also ran to the thousands, and incel forums apparently hate kiwifarms becauses of it. I'm sorry for not providing sources but its pretty hard when the website is down, there is a subforum for communities I think and its there where most of incel threads are as well as the jan 6th, qanon, etc. I'll try to get them sourced later if the website goes back up and I find some time.

> Let's not forget that the explicit purpose of KF is to run harassment and doxxing campaigns.

This is blatantly false. We can argue that there is some behind the scenes secret agenda/group to do that and all but calling it explicit is a lie. It's(was?) a public forum with public rules and open to anyone without an account to read. Since the first cloudflare post here in HN when the website was blocked i've been personally trying to get some archives of this clear as day harassment being fostered on the public website without backlash/banning and I've come up with almost nothing, especially for a website running for almost a decade now.

They do dox people/host doxes, as in it is not against the rules and the biggest threads do seem to manage to get them, but then you look at for example byuu's thread and he was never doxed by kiwifarms. Again that is not its explicit purpose, they're not doxbin.

> But there's really no gray area for KF and ED.

And yet no actual legal investigation has concluded that they're guilty of any harassment(and several were attempted), the owner has made clear that he'll comply with US authority investigations and has actually done it in the case of an user SIGSEGV, there is a subforum for this kind of legal stuff and I believe that is there, or its forum discussion, the thread should be name FBI compliance or something when they go over it. There wasn't even something like a big incident somewhat linked to the website like christchurch with 8chan and jan 6th with gab(?).

This is as website that the detractors are effectively creating claims out of thin air and getting them parroted thru media with the sources being pretty much trust me, in a time where archiving something in a forum that doesn't even need an account is a couple clicks, while having the same journalists knowingly printing lies about it (all the outlets blaming kiwifarms for things that doxbin did at the request of a streamer). If this is what passes for no having a gray area we're doomed.

When I was younger I was part of a local community that was hit with accusations from another one that absolutely hated us for airing out problems with them, and we got cut off from a lot and eventually killed off because of frivolous accusations from them to the "authority". This was a community linked to a service, and in the grand scheme of things was very small and inconsequential, but I have seen the road where believing things being repeated non-stop leads when it comes to this stuff and I'm extremely scared of it reaching the levels that it reached with kiwifarms. And before anyone asks it had nothing to do with any of the current political zeitgeist, it had to do with cheating, not that it's relevant either way but things get heated in those discussions.

[0]: https://archive.ph/7WeyE [1]: sorry for the other sources, will try to get more once the website is back up or I get more time

Unless the thing that qualifies someone for being the joe biden of $country is just winning against the trump figure of said country that makes absolutely no sense. Can't even begin to think about any similarities you'd see between biden and lula to preemptively address.

>Wikipedia has been far more resilient to misinformation, politicisation, and such

wikipedia outsources the duty of figuring out what is misinformation or not by trusting secondary sources, which themselves can and quite often are wrong. And while sure, they do have far less politization as twitter I'm unconvinced that isn't just due to a difference in mediums, because there is a massive amount of politization under the hood there. Just go into any mildly controversial figure's talk page and you'll find out.

that falls under illegal content in the US which they never didn't remove. Maybe not piracy but there's plenty of piracy subreddits last I checked. What made them start changing things iirc was the backlash over the Icloud(?) celebrity nude leaks.

And who is going to decide what those "fake news" are to censor and how will you assume they won't fall into the exact same trap of wanting to believe in what they already agree with.

We're hot off the heels of hunter biden, surely that should be a wakeup call regarding how "misinformation experts" go both ways.

they get arrested. The amount of violence that could be attributed to this sort of thing is so minuscule its barely a rounding error in overall figures. Just like school shootings it's extremely publicized but when it comes to the actual numbers it's nothing.

On another note I'd go as far as to say that prohibiting it will make them even more radical and entrenched in their beliefs, germany has extremely strict anti-nazi laws and yet never stopped having neo-nazis, much to the contrary[0]. The people who are going to go as far as real life actions will find the daily stormer or whatever other website and now he will feel like a martyr and justified of some conspiracy or whatever.

[0]:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/06/german-police-...

Because doing such a thing to someone as young and quite honestly as sane as him is absurd, regardless of what twitter people thing. The man is completely capable of making his own decisions and is not a real threat to anyone, at least not enough of a threat to pass the bar for having his agency as an individual taken away. The whole situation with britney spears was a tragedy and we need to stop thinking that these measures are a realistic way to treat things except for the most egregious cases. Having a mental illness and making bad decisions because of it is not one of those cases, else you can bet the political opposition of whatever party/whistleblowers/etc will start magically having mental illnesses and making bad decisions because of it as well.

to be fair it is an open website with no registration required to see its contents, shouldn't be hard to show how that is supposedly not true through archives especially considering the sheer scale of what is being alleged and in a span of ~10 odd years of operation. And yet since looking closer at kiwifarms during the start of the cloudflare campaign I'm still trying to find some that isn't a random twitter user going full on trust me, and I asked.

The website is put at a complicated position of having to prove a negative, and even if they do show evidence of "hey we banned this person" one could very much just say it was because they were in the spotlight. While on the other hand the accusations are just vague ones that are taken as gospel, and even outright admitted lies that journalists publish knowingly[0].

There are for sure moral questions surrounding it and its not a nice place that makes sense to not want to be involved in because of it not being a nice place. But using the nebulous accusations to make that decision instead of what is known already is not fair in my view.

This whole happenning seems to be intrinsically linked to streamer/twitter drama so it becomes a tangled mess, but a streamer seems to have done a good writeup on it with most of everything sourced[1]. Jesse singal also did a two part podcast on it doing a pretty interesting deep dive on it as well[2].

[0]:Some of many relating to the keffals case: Journalists claiming it was kiwifarms that hacked the uber when it was done by doxbin(not gonna link her doxbin, just search for the name on google and you'll find it), several doxes that were claimed to be done by kiwifarms also fall in this doxbin did it but kiwifarms is the one that gets written up for it. This wouldn't bother me much since the website does dox people and its not against the rules so what difference does it make, but when its journalists in the mainstream media clearly making them a scapegoat for something that is not uncommon nor will be fixed if the website goes down its just dishonest. And then there's places like cbc claiming that the christchurch shooting was livestreamed there[3] and the perpetrator was an user which is just blatantly false and I can't give the benefit of the doubt given how everyone knows it was facebook, let alone a journalist. Blaming the website for people showing up and taking pictures close to the streamers house then posting it on 4chan(!) and somehow its kiwifarms doing, the list goes on.

[0.1]: https://archive.ph/6JvRJ (claims that journalists knew about doxbin, while blaming kiwifarms)

[1]: https://destinygg.substack.com/p/keffals-a-case-study-on-int... (Just read chapters 2-3-4, the rest is dumb internet spats)

[2]: https://www.blockedandreported.org/p/episode-131-who-is-stal...

[3]: https://archive.ph/JF35i

why are you censoring facebook?

does vscode not have something akin to the apropos command from emacs? that tends to help quite a bit

It wasn't for a lack of trying by brazillians[0]. I can't remember much racism if I'm honest, especially by mid 2000's standards, and Orkut wasn't like twitter or facebook(today), you only had contact with people you wanted to have contact, so I can't see it being a big deal.

[0]:https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna25514386

>Forums weren't replaced by discord. Forums were replaced by Reddit.

From my experience there's a split, more "generalist" forums did get "replaced" by reddit, by subs such as technology, games, news, etc. More "in-depth" forums where you expected to see the same guys working on something or having matches together etc I've seen being almost always replaced by discord:fighting games forums(even for games with good MM), dev/security/cracking forums, really anything that isn't "mass appeal".

It's kind of crazy to look back and see just how much worse we are today than some years ago with regards to this stuff. I remember an old social media named Orkut, had pretty much everything facebook had and more, also had a huge userbase in brazil and india(?) iirc, but just goot overtaken by facebook. Original skype would probably work better than zoom does today with a few tweaks(I assume, could be wrong there when it comes to joining calls without being "friends" and such). Never used communicator but I assume it would fill the role just as well by your description. Not even going to mention forums getting gutted and being replaced with discord servers that nobody uses voice(the reason i'd assume one would prefer to use a discord server). Cmmunities that didn't want to go for a forum had several "closed community" website creators(that I cannot for the life of me remember the names) and that all got replaced by subreddits...

Quite sad to see the internet continuously being shrunk down to the lowest common denominator, some federated efforts like the fediverse make me quite hopeful, a shame most of them mimick twitter.

Gambling is a problem regardless of being regulated, if anything else being regulated only makes it easier for the audience to get addicted to it, random viewer #2345 from the US isn't gonna gamble on some dingy underground casino if there's an openly available one to do it in.

pretty sure said $STREAMERS are some of the biggest ones in the platform, and said pointless drama was started due to some of them asking twitch to ban said gambling. Occam's razor and all that, especially when you have headlines like these that do a pretty good job of making twitch look good while not actually banning gambling really.

The point the person you replied to was making was that him being CTO didn't add much credibility to his claim as you seem to assume by bringing it up, not that it necessarily removed credibility.

The owner's statement: https://archive.is/SBdQH

Find it quite weird how there was no database dump yet, can't see a reason to hold on to it, it would be pretty funny to get access then getting blocked by php being php. Owner claims there was not much to leak due to good opsec from users after the 2019 leak so we'll see.

It's not hard to keep persistent identity pretty much "anonymous", just use a throwaway e-mail and generated password, and if the website's owner message is to be believed that was the majority of people. They did have a leak back in 2019 so i'm inclined to believe him on that.

There's another side to it as well, the people who want it to be their job, and just see it as another avenue to deliver contest similar to a stream.

I agree actually, that's fair. Assuming a default position to not be a political statement does complicate things when you try to classify what is political due to giving the status quo a bit to much leeway, but honestly this classification is a waste of time.

Ah actually missed that, good catch, it does seem to be a step forward in regards to dealing with the syntactical clunkyness of templates. Now if we could have keyword arguments in functions calls without having to deal with some kludge...

been a bit since I've touched c++, but is there any reason to use trailing return types in that manner aside from solving scope issue with decltype on templates? I assumed this was a way to write functions to deal with that case and not for "regular" functions.

On another note, anything with "->" is just painful to write, same thing with the (in his proposal) ":_" instead of "=" for function arguments. Just annoying.

Well, yes, everything is political whether we like it or not. Even not having a character in a videogame that represents a minority can be a political statement. It's far too broad a brush to paint to be useful for anything

It's not even close, admins ban subs all the time, mods are under strict grip of admins on how they need to mod thing otherwise they get replaced, there are cases where admins straight up say that mod teams need to get more people in the team or they'll lose the sub, i've seen subs with automods straight up saying that they need to be careful with what is written otherwise they'll be banned.

The huge Aimee Challenor thing, that lead to people being banned anywhere the name was uttered is just the super high profile example I know, i'm sure reddit users would be able to show more smaller cases.

Just want to make it clear, I'm not claiming this control is good or bad, there are good reasons for and against moderation, but reddit is not even close to a free for all.

[0]: https://www.newsweek.com/reddit-aimee-knight-challenor-fired...

That's not uncommon, when you make something easy* to learn and use you obfuscate certain things that are more "advanced" to streamline the onboarding experience, and then when you want to break out of the streamlining you gotta learn to circumvent those "stops" somewhat, which often end up being pretty non ergonomic. It compounds as well because the ones developing the language will have a bias towards what it currently offers and the "unorthodox" side keeps getting set aside.

*and by easy there I mean streamlined and more intuitive on most expected "common" tasks than the alternatives

So your thinking is that the republican party, which by and large already disagreed with trump(to the extent a republican was the alleged "target" of the riot), would side with him after his supporters murder Mike Pence, said republican?

You can dislike republicans all you want but this is just another level.

I do believe the counterpoint kills the idea, is what I meant. A geographically splintered internet(or rather, geographically splintered "social medias") would just lead to a service showing up that is international and will grow a majority again and the whole cycle begins anew.

The only way I can see this happening would be different instances for each country, as in things would get moderated based on the country laws in question, which I suppose could work in theory, but at that point having enough support staff to actively moderate on a country by country basis is doubtful given how it is currently.

Democracy isn't a king of the hill match, if some loonies managed to take over the capitol they'd just get siege'd out.

How do you honestly think this would go? they take the capitol and trump shows up and says "im the president for another term" then everyone goes home and ignores the corpse of Mike Pence?