Their WAF isn't there yet, the moment it can build the expressions you can build with CF (and allows you to have as much visibility into the traffic as CF does), then it might be a solid option, assuming they have the compute/network capacity.
57 karma · joined August 31, 2022
We tried Stackpath, Imperva (Incapsula back in the day), etc but they were either too expensive or went out of business.
Not everybody needs cloudflare, but those that need it and aren't major enterprises, have no other option.
Turnstile/Challenges per se don't rely on the UA at all.
This is the internet and everybody is a field expert the moment they want to win an argument, best of luck with that.
The problem with this setup, is that it sacrifices on both security (because it needs to keep false positives at a minimum, even if that means allowing some known bots) and user experience (because situations like the one you have will occur from time to time). When you enable a challenge page on CF, it will work as-is and you have no ruling over it, the most you can do is skip the page for the browsers having false positives.
If CF gave site owners a clearer view of what they are blocking and let them choose which rules to enforce (within the challenge page), it would be much easier to simply say that the customer running CF doesn't want you visiting their page/doesn't care about few false positives.
There are actually hundreds of smaller chromium forks that add small features, such as built-in adblock and have no issues with neither Cloudflare nor other captchas.
I'm unsure what part of this isn't clear, major browsers, as long as they are up to date, are supported and should always pass challenges. Palemoon isn't a major browser, neither are the other browsers mentioned on the thread.
> * Nowhere is it mentioned that internet access will be denied to visitors not using "major" browsers *
Challenge pages is what your browser is struggling to pass, you aren't seeing a block page or a straight up denying of the connection, instead, the challenge isn't passing because whatever update CF has done, has clearly broken the compatibility with Palemoon, I seriously doubt this was on purpose. Regarding those annoying challenge pages, these aren't meant to be used 24/7 as they are genuinely annoying, if you are seeing challenge pages more often than you are on chrome, its likely that the site owner is actively is flagging your session to be challenged, they can undo this by adjusting their firewall rules.
If a site owner decides to enable challenge pages for every visitor, you should shift the blame on the site owners lack of interest in properly tunning their firewall.
Think about it this way: when a framework (many modern websites) or CAPTCHA/Challenge doesn't support an older or less common browser, it's not because someone's sitting there trying to keep people out. It's more likely they are trying to balance the maintenance costs and the hassle involved in allowing or working with whatever other many platforms there are (browsers in this case). At what point is a browser relevant? 1 user? 2 users? 100? Can you blame a company that accommodates for probably >99% of the traffic they usually see? I don't think so, but that's just me.
At the end, site owners can always look at their specific situation and decide how they want to handle it - stick with the default security settings or open things up through firewall rules. It's really up to them to figure out what works best for their users.
This is a common misconception with many providers, they have DDoS protection to ensure that an attack against them won't cause your website/service being unavailable, however, if an attack targets your service, it most likely won't be filtered by their system.
Does everybody get those attacks? Probably not, however, Cloudflare centralizes the attacks into a single IP reputation database so, if at some point, a certain node was abused on x site that uses Cloudflare, anybody who is routed through that node will have a poor experience browsing CF sites.
This approach of centralizing IP reputations has its own flaws and benefits, Tor Nodes aren't inherently given a bad reputation, it just happens that if 90 people are using the tool for all the good things, 2 assholes can abuse the IPs and have them blacklisted on almost any website, whether it's Cloudflare, Imperva, Akamai, PX, you name it. Cloudflare is the most known name but there are tons of other E2E/B2B providers that don't show up as often.
Regarding security features, if you are on a cloud such as GCP, AWS or Azure things are complicated since you can't easily route the traffic elsewhere(you can have BGP connections to DDoS mitigation inside GRE/L2TP tunnels only when attacks occur and it would be cheap to rent on a monthly/yearly basis). Voxility is an example that comes to mind and they are very affordable in general terms.
HTTP or HTTPs attacks are easier to handle with Cloudflare, however, there are other interesting solutions such as Stackpath.
Both require tweaking and are far from being 1-click setup tools (despite some marketing attempts that try to make it seem that way), however, if you can manage them, they are very powerful and considerably cheaper than other alternatives.
From my experience they will get back to you quickly (usually in <1-2 hour) and they can try helping out if you are still under attack / need some consultation.
Will we ever get compensated for the wasted engineering time to stop these attacks? probably not, but if the police ever finds them and they have extra logs of companies that reported issues, its likely an aggravation of the case.
You don't need few million samples, with 500-700 images per category you are more than ready to solve current captchas.
Google accounts give you a good score and tend to deliver easy captchas while dealing with Recaptcha; however, for this reason, google accounts are being sold and bought constantly.
People have tried similar fight tactics in the past. SMS and phone verification have failed because the return on investment is far greater than the price barrier it adds to get any of those "virtual identities".
iPhones might work but then, for how long? If you guarantee that an IPhone won't get captchas, it's a good investment to buy many old(or new) ones and sell token access to skip any captcha.
Many farms already have thousands of phones scrolling through youtube videos to get views, likes, and other stats for videos/channels.
The same "logic" applies to yubikeys and similar auth hardware; attackers can exploit it similarly.
Companies will tell you that they have abuse policies and actively fight abuse/bot farms, but again, they are not solving a problem but solving the problem with tape.
ReCAPTCHA was very useful for a while, it did genuinely stop bots reasonably well, but none of the "newer" versions seem as efficient as the older versions used to be. Progress stopped after V2.
Sure, you have to emulate or simulate the client JS challenges but when bots are running browsers in the background you can only do so much.
I wonder what the future of captchas, if any, will look like.
The only way for somebody to DDoS from Cloudflare would be using workers, however, this isn't practical as workers have a very limited IP Range.
Does this mean that TCP workers would be exposed to network level attacks or would it use transit/spectrum? If it turns out to be protected; I'd say there would be little to no reason to use Spectrum unless the pricing turns out to be atrocious for long lived connections (which is kind of the point of having TCP workers in the first place).
I hope I did not come out as rude; I'm genuinely curious about what's the plan behind all of this.
Edit: I pointed out there would be no use for spectrum since one could "easily" build a reverse proxy with a tcp worker.
With that being said; I have seen cases where the T&S team flagged legitimate sites by mistake so... I get why CF wants to be careful with any action they decide making on this regard.