Hacker News Reader

Comment by supernihil | Hacker News Reader

I dont like the idea of replacing the time spend compulsively procrastinating with "learning a new language, getting a pet, going to the gym" is the right way.

I see the root cause (for me atleast (used to read HN and blogs for 4 hours everyday)) is that i cant stand being with myself.

During the last two months ive been trying to not panic when i'm idle. And not take out my phone or read the nearest material i can lay my hands on.

Instead i try to accept the necesity of "falde i staver" (danish for 'falling out of presence'). When i was a kid i would often just fall into this state and just defocus with my sight and let daydreaming take over.

Basically i have a war going against effectiveness. I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking at trees.

My advice on "doing something" when you have day without plans is the following: Bike in the forrest, coffee from thermos near the ocean, read newspapers at the library, talk to people at trainstations (the frequent hangouts are always open for conversations)

View on HN

They're just cliche ideas for how to fill the time. Anyone one who tries to break an addiction suddenly finds themselves with a lot of free time they don't know how to fill.

But on that note, have multiple kids AND get a pet. You'll never have a free minute again.

I would strongly argue against having kids as a solution for any of life‘s problems. Kids are an incredibly demanding venture and can exacerbate existing problems. Speaking from experience here.

I think he was being facetious.

After rereading, I think you’re right.

I mean from a purely evolutionary perspective, the point of life is to pass on your genes to your offspring, so having kids would be winning at this game we call life…

so life’s greatest winner is genghis khan

Do you have an alternative "point of life"?

Is it career? If so, that's pretty depressing. Happiness is a superficial emotion. If your loved one was "happy" spending his entire life playing fortnight in his parent's basement, would you be sad for him? Charity?

I don't know. Never found a meaning as compelling as having children.

>Happiness is a superficial emotion

A google definition of superficial is "appearing to be true or real only until examined more closely."

I don't see how the definition of a type of emotion can be "superficial". Presumably your usage of "happy" in quotes is not actually happiness if you decided to put it in quotes. If you meant it as him actually being happy then someone could decide to be sad for him but that has nothing to do with his own happiness. Instead it would just be someone arrogantly projecting their own sensibilities and worldview onto the fortnite player while thinking they know better sources of happiness (when really the causes are subjective and every person derives varying levels of joy in different ways).

Making kids a "point of life" can itself be seen as a last ditch effort to be happy. The thought that there's some purpose in life that points to procreating is arbitrarily chosen and is seemingly that way because people derive happiness from some idea of having a legacy or finding comfort in interpreting the potential continuous spread of dna as some proxy for immortality

Why does there have to be a point? Just go with it.

Genghis Khan had many children: https://www.grunge.com/187878/how-many-children-did-genghis-...

Reproducing is just a mechanism for adaptation. So the ultimate goal is to adapt now?

what a bizarre reaction to my comment

I read your comment as somewhat dismissive at the point of life being having children because you made a joke of Genghis Khan "winning" the game of life.

greatest score - so far

wait for the scientist who'll start printing soldier clones of himself

From a purely physical point of view, life's goal can be reduced to passing on information.

YMMV. Kids made my life immeasurably better. And I have some with severe handicaps.

> for any of life‘s problems

I understand it was hyperbole, but I would suggest one possible application of having and throwing everything you've got at raising children[1] to help with aimlessness/meaninglessness/purposelessness. Particularly when they're your own the common experience is your instinct/genome takes over and you'll find great imperative to do things you couldn't do for yourself. I learned about this concept from Jordan Peterson who also notes it works with pets[2]. For any bit of resentment about how the world has treated you, pouring yourself into someone else can at least give the solace that for them they will not suffer as much as you have, or at least not in the same insanity producing cyclical way as you had.

[1]: (technically can also be someone else's like foster, adopt, church, mentor, nephews/nieces) .

[2]: he talks about how people more frequently fill prescriptions for pets than for themselves.

I know enough shitty parents to say this does not have a high rate of success in changing people for the better, but I will leave it to Jordan Peterson, he seems like a real expert type.

A lot of people nowadays lack responsibility.

Society keeps encouraging a lifestyle with less and less responsibility.

The government takes care of you (until you start bringing in profits), your employer takes care of you (with no raises). Everything seems engineered to coddle people without making them realise what they're missing. I feel most people are basically unaware cattle, happy to stay in their comfort zone and to keep producing what they tell them to.

Sexual promiscuity is cool, relationships don't last, having kids is a suicide, you're a victim.

A lot of the shitty parents have way deeper problems than this. The ones doing ok are probably glad they get to use their judice and they enjoy the freedom that comes with responsibility (without forgetting the obligations).

I've heard a hypothesis in the past (cannot recall the data) that people who put themselves under financial responsibility (eg through debt, virtuous or vice) often are pressed into earning more. That is it seems the mechanism might be you get stressed about paying your bills so you pursue a life of higher income. People might become wealthier as home owners not because of the wealth the home generates but because of the consistent act of building a little wealth month by month for 25 years, and for want of a bit more disposable income they chase a promotion, raise, or more valuable skills.

I believe there is a similar function in marriages, parenting, and other relationships -- the act of working through challenges makes you a "better" person at least in the regards of perspective, negotiation, less selfishness etc.

Of course, like basically everything in every discussion, there are exceptions but lets not focus on those because it makes it difficult to talk about anything save for physical laws.

> For any bit of resentment about how the world has treated you, pouring yourself into someone else can at least give the solace that for them they will not suffer as much as you have

Personally, I'm shocked at how just having kids has healed a lot of my held resentment. I used to look back at moments in my life that I wished had gone differently. Now I see that if you gave me a time machine and the chance to go back and change how I responded, I can't do it because I'd be erasing my kids.

I wouldn't even be able to stop the covid pandemic, selfish as that may be.

> But on that note, have multiple kids AND get a pet. You'll never have a free minute again.

But then you’ll flock to these addictions because you feel you need an escape.

I have four kids and a ShiTsu.

Or multiple pets and no kids, got 2 labs, a cat, a fish, and a cockatiel--its never boring at my house.

I am nearly the opposite, but it has the same effect.

I can spend hours in my own head, just thinking about… everything. For me the phone rabbit hole usually starts with an idea that needs more information to live.

The outcome, however, is the same: I get very little practical work done, I am constantly behind and very frustrated.

Yes I have this problem.

I am getting better at doing things, but I quickly become overwhelmed, because those thoughts never stop and instead of doing what I need to do, it's a battle plus all those thoughts I have that feel like I need to spend time thinking them through etc, rather than doing the most basic of things that I need to do.

> I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking at trees.

OK, I get this. Really, I do. I've spent many many hours doing "nothing" just like this, and those have generally been happy times. But ... how would that change if you had a lot more free time? Could you spend all day every day in such a state? Would it be healthy if you did?

The reason I ask is that I've had to grapple with that question since I retired. Probably will even more so when my daughter leaves for college. And as much as I enjoy doing "nothing" I find that I just can't do it all day. I have to be doing something, which brings us right back to the issue of low-effort low-reward activities (e.g. doomscrolling on the internet) vs. high-effort high-reward activities (e.g. hobbies, community involvement, travel). I force myself to do the latter first so I don't lose the ability to do hard(er) things, and there's still plenty of time left over for the low-effort stuff.

I suggest that your "war" only needs to be fought because you don't have enough total free time, and it will seem like a very different war when that changes.

I agree. I recently came on sick leave due to stress and had to grasp the immense amount of sudden time on my hands.

Since i am on sickleave due to anxiety, stress and skizotypia i dont usually like being alone with my thoughts.

so what ive done with my time is this:

Wake up, fill my thermos with hot water. Leave my apartment.

Drive around on my bike looking for hidden places. It can be an empty lot behind a supermarket or an off-path place in the forrest.

Walk around and study the vegetation. Find a nice place for some instant coffee, chill.

Sit-drink coffee-stare-listen-repeat.

Decide to leave. Bike to a place where there is a lot of people i know. Leave cuz i am too anxious to talk to any of them.

Have a quick chat at the harbour with some strangers.

Go to the library and read a bit of comics or newspapers. Take the bus to another harbour.

Make minor.fixes to my small boat from the 70's.

Go to the swimming hall. chill in sauna and max up the heat. Stare.

Go home, make food for minimum money as an exercise. Eat.

Think about projects i could imagine would be fun. Imagine the details of them. Maybe write them down. Be okay with never doing them.

Watch some hbo.

Plan when i have my kids again "maybe tomorrow?" And where to take them? Usually the beach or the forrest and have fun in the woods.

Go my my bedroom without any devices and sleep.

I live in denmark

How much instant coffee do you drink? And have you tried going without caffeine? Some are very sensitive to caffeine.

I like your routine though, I envy those who live in walkable areas!

I have a severe coffee problem i admit. Biggest addiction of mine and definitly needs taking care of. I consider moving to rooibos tea as i like the flavor more than coffee

>i suggest that your "war" only needs to be fought because you don't have enough total free time, and it will seem like a very different war when that changes.

My war is personal, ive been over productive for 7 years like this: Work 50+ hours as it engineer, taking on too much responsibility. Doing opensource projects in spare time. Doing srt projects like stage shows and stuff on weekends. Being a dad to 3. Being main supplyer of moneys in the home. Having some heavy duty mental ilness diagnoses on the top. All the while i never felt i was worth anything. Not a dime.

Now i aim for having low amount of recurring bills. Chill with my kids (i now dont live with anymore since the above details produced my divorce) Be outside, all weather, all the time. Be helpful. And accept a new way of not being productive. And therefore also not consuming a lot.

This somehow points towards an interesting question. Is it healthy or "good" to procrastinate? Since this is a problem almost everyone has during their life, it must serve some evolutionary purpose.

What if it was disadvantageous to outwork everyone else during anthropogenesis even if it is rational in our modern world where the upside is practically unlimited and the downside is nearly always limited? A natural environment is almost exactly the opposite - Does that mean we are fighting our "natural" behavior every day? This question isn't meaning to be fatalistic, exactly what OP and the video by Luke Smith he linked criticize. But understanding the biological reason behind procrastination could lead us to some deeper understanding on how to win this uphill battle.

> I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking at trees.

yes, I even like framing this as an environmental conservation activity.

I'm doing nothing at all (only consuming oxygen, no content, no nothing) as a conscious action to save the environment.

I don’t want to guilt anyone here, but just sitting there and consuming oxygen and therefore calories is a significant environmental impact. Feeding humans, especially fresh fruits and vegetables or meat, has a pretty large environmental impact. (Staples like grains and such don’t because they’re storable and calorie-dense on a per-acre metric.)

And humans can have a positive impact on the environment. We can plant trees, do civil engineering to shore up damaged ecosystems, care for animals, develop cleaner ways to live and make food, etc. humans do not have to be a net negative for the environment.

Which isn’t to say that resting and daydreaming are bad or net negative. I think they’re good! Even if just good for the soul, that helps fight the encroaching nihilism of modern life and think more in a positive-sum manner.

> Staples like grains and such don’t because they’re storable and calorie-dense on a per-acre metric.

So you’re saying that I should have some potato chips on hand for when I’m being lazy? You seem wise.

At which point does an animal goes from being part of the environment to have its diet analysed for "environmental impact"?

reminds me of church of euthanasia's "save the planet kill yourself" from the older internet.

the point is that it's the least we can consume, in contrast with a more capitalist friendly "go sit at a cafe to buy a drink" or even a scholarly-ambitious "read a book, or newspaper or learn something, don't just sit there". both of which are much worse.

But that just wastes the big climate impact that was invested to grow you to adulthood. Now is the time to reinvest in the Earth. Humans can definitely have a net-negative carbon footprint if they work at it.

That's a very human centric way of framing the issue.

There is no environment that need saving. Carbon emissions are merely changing the environment in a way that may not be convenient for a lot of humans.

You're just saving the status quo of human society, not "reinvesting in the Earth".

If by environment you mean species of animals you should worry more about plastic and trash than carbon emissions.

But, like, I’m a human? Morals are a human thing (or a mammalian thing maybe), heck written WORDS are definitely a human centric thing. How could I not be human centric?

I think his point is that instead of minimizing consumption you should aim to actually produce something and not just drain "minimal" resources sitting around day dreaming.

Once you realize that idle brain time is when actual creative problem solving occurs without you conscious of it then its easier to let go. I definitely feel fine just staring out of a train window rather than my phone knowing this.

The way I view this is that there's no such thing as idle brain time. When you take away focused conscious thinking, the brain is built to do background problem-solving on its own. (This also makes sense if the purpose of dreaming while asleep is garbage-collection of unresolved thoughts and anxieties.)

> I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking at trees

here, here!

Quick question: we have a similar (the same?) exclamation in German, it's "hört, hört!" which would be translated to "hear, hear!", not "here, here!". Is it actually "here, here!" in English or it possible you've just mistaken the words after having only heard them?

You are right. "Hear, hear" is correct qnd indicates approval.

Thanks for clearing that up!

The expression comes from England's Parliament. The full version is, "Hear, Hear the excellent speaker!"

The old saying in English is "hear, hear", in reference to old parliament procedures.

I use "here, here" on text forums because you can't hear anything, but "right here" is a post worth reading!

It's "hear hear"

I’ve found that having a very finite procrastination activity (like, say, doing ten push-ups) can help. The trick is finding something that can’t be extended indefinitely.

I see this a lot and I’m curious - why can’t you stand being with yourself?

You touch on it a little when you say you begin to panic when you’re idle - what is the source of that panic? Is it FOMO? Is it un-processed traumatic memories? Is it unhinged neuroticism and overthinking? Is it something else? What is the source of that panic?

I dont like my company because: I endlessly think about solutions to problems like personal budget, relationship to my kids mom, feeling alone and having no immediate people to talk to. That my mental illness is deteriorating. That my kids will inherit my ilness. Etc etc etc. And then i also spend too much time trying to figure out how other people function since i sincerely dont have an idea of what "normal behavior of lifestyle" looks like"

Both of these are traits of my skizotypical diagnosis being 'lack of identity' 'lack of understanding of how other people engage in life' 'emotional blindness' etc

You might like the book "4000 Weeks: Time Management for Mortals." It's about this precise idea of valuing idleness (there's no quick way to change that mindset, it's a process).

Thank You for this recommendation, a refreshing book in the age of GTD, 4-hour workweek and numerous "lifehacks".

At least if you know you have addictive tendencies you will get a benefit! :D It's a good first step to replacing a destructive/ineffective behavior with something a little better. I think in our software somewhere we all have a kind of addictive complex that for some, modern tech seems to be good at pushing. If you can wield it for good, I think that's a good change.

I agree with you that the obsession with S-tier clearing life is very bad for people. I have many young friends who obsess over optimizing every move they make at cost to their sanity and time. Specialization is for insects.

I agree with you on not liking the idea of changing your time sinks. I ran into a similar problem as your's with Reddit, and realized it was because I did not really like my self.

Somewhere along the way I realized I had not day dreamed or used my imagination for a long time because it was so easy to "read the nearest material I can lay my hands on".

To add to your advice I would suggest to try to find out who you are without outside material and to get comfortable with this self.

But what if being in the moment at one with yourself and your environment is an addiction for you as well? I spent years in the trap he describes. Binging passive eacapes like YouTube Netflix, an even pulp fiction novels. Video games were a step up, at least they involved engagement. I also loved solo hiking, or even staring at a blank wall thinking, or not thinking. Anything to avoid cleaning the dishes, folding clothes, filling out forms, making phone calls, or any task I couldn't manage to hyperfocus on. I only escaped by getting married and having a kid. Love for others helped where love to self did not. After all, I was happy in that place, and probably still would be. But while a family is work, its also a challenge, and rising to meet it gives a real sense of accomplishment. Now that I am diagnosed as ADHD and have some mmedicine and training to deal with it, I find that using them to push through other tasks I don't like, also brings that sense of accomplishment and those unexpected rewards make it easier the next time. ADHD brains don't accept deferred rewards as positive reinforcement for learning purposes, so you either need continuous rewards, or medicine/tricks to get through. Also we respond better to negative reinforcement, so if it doesn't harm your emotional state, denying yourself things as a punishment can work, also focussing on natural consequences of failing to complete a task works sometimes, even in advance.

> I see the root cause (for me atleast (used to read HN and blogs for 4 hours everyday)) is that i cant stand being with myself.

> During the last two months ive been trying to not panic when i'm idle. And not take out my phone or read the nearest material i can lay my hands on.

> (...)

> My advice on "doing something" when you have day without plans is the following: Bike in the forrest, coffee from thermos near the ocean, read newspapers at the library, talk to people at trainstations (the frequent hangouts are always open for conversations)

Or maybe meditate? It may be hard (specially when beginning) but it's wonderful for learning to comfortable with yourself

Reply on news.ycombinator.com