abhishivsaxena

Totally agree. And much of the violence being attributed to Burmese forces is just hearsay attributed to Islamists.

Western media/NGOs seems to buy it at face value and support these said Islamist, but hey they also supported ISIS affiliates in Syria against secular Asad regime so that's not surprising to me at all.

This apart from the fact that anyone from subcontinent will tell you that these are not Rohingyas, but Bengalis speaking Bangladeshis who have flooded rakhine and made ethnic rakhines a minority in a few decades.

Really? What did you have for lunch today?

All the herbivores in Animal Kingdom would disagree with that statement.

Please look at per capita emissions of India compared to other countries before making such statements.

Wonder how Indians do a damage to the enviornment, by having the lowest per capita emissions on planet.

FYI - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

> 1) a biometric data base (and biometrics I decry in particular)

true

> 2) which is being used to unify all databases

false. And also FUD. PAN can be used for more tacking that Aadhaar.

> 3) including things which it is not supposed to,

false, strictly what's mandated by parliament in the Aadhaar bill. In a democracy parliament is suprement, not some privacy-wallahs.

> 4) with the architecture underlying Aadhar

not relevant to argument

> 5) while removing all options to opt out

true, so? It's mandated by parliament. It's like a mandatory tax ID.

6) For demonstrably false gains (the AP results, their false reduction in costs claims)

false

Bottom line, Aadhaar is just like any other ID or Tax ID, and no amount of disinformation will change that. It stores and 4 attribues about you name/dob/gender/address and two biometrics.

Biometrics actually make the system more secure, since it's driven by a biometric based consent driven architecture with stuff like instant notifications whenever you data is assessed. Only you can allow who accesses these 4 attributes by authenticating via biometrics or by OTP.

It's mandated by the parliament. If you don't like it, please try to get a party in power which would dismantle it next time. If that doesn't happen I'm afraid the only other option for you is to move.

> The fact is that a majority of Indians do not know what the constitution is, what their protections are, and do not have recourse to it.

> It is instead people like you - who sell their rights for cheap pennies, who are considered craven, and who they despise.

Another example of the quality of demeaning discourse peddled by Anti-Aadhaar lobby.

But doesn't matter. As long as the overwhelming majority of billion+ Indians keeps backing Aadhaar and keep on doing millions of transactions everyday, all this online FUD wouldn't count for anything.

> Is your bank responsible for your peacekeeping and policing ? It is not.

So you are fine with the bank having your name/dob/gender. But don't want the government to have it?

In case you don't know, govt already knows these attributes about you. Birth certificates, passports, PAN for high value transactions. FUD.

> Accusations of lack of rationality are valid when you have the locus standii proven by base knowledge of subject matter. Your various assertions here and in other parts of the thread do not suggest that

Oh, I think I do! Along with overwhelming majority of a billion+ Indians who are very happy using Aadhaar, doing millions of transactions each day, and want the program further expanded.

> So how is this not a matter of rights and trust. Please demonstrate.

That is for you to demonstrate, since it's your argument. Not me! Hence I said devoid of rational arguments.

KYC was a part of Aadhaar from day one.

I assume you are implying someone can determine your religion, caste and more by using your name.

If you signup for a bank account or a mobile company, they would have your name/dob in any case - Aadhaar or No-Aadhaar. Like in any other country on this planet.

This isn't textbook definition of causing FUD? And it's shocking that Mozilla is at forefront of it.

Also, using buzzwords like "trust", "rights" doesn't augment your arguments, if it's missing a coherent rational structure.

You can ask aadhaar to dispatch notifications to you every time an authentiction happens.

Non govt agencies need your consent to get your data, if you don't want that just don't authenticate.

The article suggests that government is selling your data to private companies, which is such a big misrepresentation I wonder how Mozilla let its name be used for it. Do they not care for their reputation anymore?

Private companies can access your data only if you give them you consent by authenticating, and all they get is name/dob/gender/address-if-avialable. Which they would have anyways since you are their customer - mobile provider, bank etc.

There should be an overarching privacy law in India covering disclosure, insurance, etc; but that's a separate debate.

> I mentioned elsewhere that centralized anti-corruption programs have a terrible track record for a reason. If you couldn't count on your institutions to prevent corruption, you cannot count on them to prevent abuse of power. Given that track record, a default position of scepticism is warranted.

This isn't an anti corruption program. Just an National Id like in any other country. And BM authentication to keep your data secure using consent driven architecture.

Astonishing how something even simple that would create such noise in India.

> Right back at you. I may have a choice when using a commercial service but why is the government forcing me to have an Aadhaar if I never intend to use it?

Mostly only if you want subsidies. If you are talking about the PAN linkage, you are already required to have PAN. Is that forcing you as well? That way you can even refuse to follow any regulation, arguing that goverment is forcing you. We don't live in an anarchy. If you don't like Aadhaar go vote for some party which will revoke it come next election. If can't do it, maybe think about changing countries.

> Yes but they cannot build a profile of me using things like income bracket (pan linking), travel information (rail and air travel linking), social and family ties (various other ways). If you think this isn't even plausible in India, either you have skin in the game or are being (/ intentionally trying to be) incredibly naive.

This kinds of profiles can be built using system like Palantair, Aadhaar or no Aaadhaar. Using just Name/DOB/Address can be decent enough identifier. And we already have PAN mandated for high value transactions. Opposing Aadhaar on these grounds, seems extremely silly to me.

Again, I am not connected with Aadhaar at all. Not want clicks like some people on this thread. Just a concerned citizen who wants to see technology help the poor/needy.

EDIT

> Yes, but once compromised they cannot be changed. Also, could you state clearly whether fingerprints would be used for authentication or identification?

Identity Authentication, because you identify yourself using the Aadhaar number, then prove it by authenticating.

Yes they can't be changed. But since there's an audit trails + you need an insider@service-provider to pass the stolen BM to server, those who try would be easily caught. With signatures/xerox there's no audit trails or instant notification. That's much more insecure if you look at it dispassionately.

Many people are not understanding Aadhaar is being used for stuff like bank accounts, food grain etc where this is acceptable.

Alternative like signatures, smart-cards, passwords etc wouldn't work in a country like India.

That could be more because your tone, making unsubstantiated claims etc.

Instead if you want to blame some national party for it, it's you choice.

FYI I don't have downvotes powers.

Btw, I got donwvotes too. But I'm blaming anyone for it.

Ok, I apologise. Shouldn't have used that word.

> https://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g187768-c5431/Italy:Sim.C...

> Purchasing a SIM in Italy requires presentation of proper identification, such as valid passport or European ID card

This conversation just illustrate the quality of arguments Anti Aadhaar lobby has in this thread.

> It all sounds familiar when you know privacy concerns of Chinese humanitarians - read great firewall of internet.

That has nothing to do wit Aadhaar or India. All European nations require an ID to get a mobile connection. That risk would exist in any country Aadhaar or no Aadhaar. What's your point?

> How does being biggest in numbers help in democracy ? Democracy is pretty old my friend. 70 years is again a very small age in democracy.

Mister because it show the strength of democratic institutions and freedom in a country. Even when compared to richer european nations like Spain/Portugal. Please look at freedom house rating for asian nations before being so condescending.

> (Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state knowing their entire web activity - how is not dystopian?

Aadhaar has nothing to do with you web activity. It's used as KYC - Know your Customer - for getting the JIO connection. It's optional, and as an alternative you can submit a xerox of any ID documents for your KYC. Most european countries require an ID document to get a mobile connection as well - Italy for example.

> Going by a similar analogy - Should a US citizen use SSN to get a home-woker-robot from a private company like (Google,SpaceX) to help with all daily chores ? BIG NO

More apt analogy would be that should a US citizen use SSN to to get a bank account at Citibank? BIG YES

> India has also been known for its infamous caste society (read prejudice) for few millenia - will unique identification help eradicate or increase the problem further ? can anybody explain which applies here and how ?

That has nothing to do with Aadhaar so I would ignore it.

> Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low.

It's also one of the freest countries in Asia according to Freedom House, and has robust institutions. It's the world's biggest democracy for 70 years now - during which western countries like Spain and Portugal were rules by dictators.

Please keep you condescending attitude to yourself. Indias are well informed to make an informed choice in this matter, and they have.

EDIT IN RESPONSE TO YOUR EDIT:

> How is with aadhar and facts above help prevent a state or private-company or mix-of-both-them not become big brother ?

Because Mister it's only used for KYC. Aadhaar system only stores a few attributes - Name/DOB/gender/address-if-available. That's data every goverment in this world keeps of its citizens. Do you understand now how you and Mozilla are fear mongering?

Also payment startups are at the fore front of the Anti Aadhaar lobbying effort, since Aadhaar based payments + UPI essentially cut the middleman out - NO MDR anymore!

And it makes sense. Would you want a private company like ApplePay/PayPal/AliPay control payments, and be able to block merchants at will like apple does, or a public agency you can drag to court.

Mister, I just made a point by point rebuttal to the obvious and glaring flaws in your arguments. If you can't stand when someone does that to you, I apologise.

But if we don't believe in any statistics what else is to debate?

That's the point I was bringing up, that there seems to me much conjecture and not much facts being brought up by Anti-Aadhaar lobby.

I think enrollment started in 2011 - so it's 6 years to get 99% coverage.

I don't think it's fair to bring in other statistics into this, because in this case all they have to do a SQL COUNT to get the number of enrolled. It's what they were supposed to do after all.

> In addition, such programs do well in areas of good communication, and are weaker in more remote areas and those with weaker educational systems. Which is not an India-specific issue. And it is those hard-to-count people who need the program the most. Also those people are in areas where the local officials are typically the most mendacious (which is why they are hard to reach)... you see the problem.

It's totally not like that. Sorry to say, but your comment sounds like you have never been to these areas, and are just conjecturing mentally. Please have a look at the enrolment infrastructure UIDAI specifically built to get to universal coverage. It's actually a good case study for other countries to learn from.

EDIT: don't care at all about downvotes.

> Second, lets talk about privacy. Fine there is a new card. Why do they need iris scans and finger prints? What is the need? That too in a government infrastructure which is surely not protecting it properly - http://www.livemint.com/Industry/73F92SKvUKxyngjfx7O0aJ/UIDA....

For the same reason a bank requires your signature. To authenticate you. But in India because we still have some illiteracy signatures won't do. That's why it uses Biometrics. This didn't come to your mind? Does it not reflect poorly on you?

> So it is a system which can be compromised by a motivated employee? What was the benefit again? Oh right stamping out corruption. Lets see how long that lasts.

Mister, in the alternative system - signature/xerox - there's no audit trail. So anyone with a pen paper can forge you signature for example. With Aadhaar you at least get notification anytime authentication happens.

You seem to believe that those who have built Aadhaar, haven't thought through all this, while you can. Classic case of arm chair analyst I may assume from you arguments.

> People praising direct benefits, was it not possible using raashan card? If your answer is well they could be fakes? Then wake up to the fact that there can be fake Aadhar cards too.

How exactly would you fake BM to get an extra Aadhaar card? Make an fake eye in a lab, and get someone at enrollment center to register that?

The problem with ration cards was that not only fakes, but also that they were not well organized sructured at all. Have you every walked into a tehsildar's office?

SSN/TIN is required to open a bank account. Like it's in every other country. Or to get welfare payments.

It's kind of common-sense. To give welfare to someone, you first need to identify them.

Aadhaar was supported by the previous government. This government continued it. Most of India is unwavered in their support, since they see the benefits of getting instant bank account or food subsidy. And not being forced to stand in a line for such simple stuff in 40C+ temperature and wasting your entire day.

There are more anti-aadhaar green accounts in this thread than pro-aadhaar. If your only argument is to bring thowaway statements like Nationalism/Russia etc into it, then it just reflects poorly on you.

So when you said "intimate details" you meant logs. Ok.

Btw, Aadhaar doesn't store for what you authenticating, or where you are authenticating. That's another lie you are using to fear monger.

But in the end it doesn't matter. 1.3B+ Indians see the benefit of it. And are using it everyday by doing millions of transaction.

Keep on fear mongering. It's not having any effect.

Contrary is also true. How fear mongering and condescending attitude towards others can make you delusional to not see the facts in plain sight.

Really. So anyone can physically break into an archiving unit, steal someone's BC, change some details and use it get benefits/fraud? And the victim wouldn't even get a hint? Sounds very dangerous!

I have my details saved in a centralised database, which notifies me via an SMS anytime my credentials are used.

I acknowledge the BM issue elsewhere in this thread. But please realise that unless you live in a cave your BM are already public. I can take you out for a coffee and steal your finger prints.

The point is that for KYC/payments BM are much more secure than the alternative you would use - signatures/xerox which are even easier to steal since you just need a pen and a paper.

93% in 2015 according to UIDAI - http://www.firstpost.com/india/about-93-percent-of-adults-in...

99% in 2017 according to the the minister - http://www.thehindu.com/business/Aadhaar-covers-99-of-adults...

1.11+ B people

All this is easily googleable. I fail to understand why you and the OP wouldn't just check it before fear mongering.

How come you don't know that 99% adults have Aaadhaar in India at last count? Or if you knew still decided to raise this point.

Aadhaar has the same data that your US birth certificate has. Name/DOB/gender/Address-if-available. Unless I'm mistaken everyone in US has a Birth Certificate.

EDIT IN RESPONSE TO YOUR EDIT

An birth certificate is also an ID. There's no rational reason of being proud of not having a national ID, when you have mandatory birth registrations and birth certificates.

If anything Aadhaar store less information than your BC - no record of who your parents are for example.

1) Fingerprints are harder to fake than what's being used currently - signatures and xerox

2) Fine. Don't authenticate with Aadhaar when you go to get a commercial service. Why force you choice on me?

And the info they get is name/dob/gender. Which they would anyway have - Aadhaar or no Aadhaar - since you are their customer.

Please think through it.

OMG Mozilla. No wonder open internet is in such a bad shape when we have you leading it.

1) Aadhaar is not fundamentally different than a National ID which every other country in this world has. India not only lacked it, out birth registrations certificates weren't reliable at all.

2) Yes they do collection Biometrics(BM). But BM are never shared with any other agency/company. And it's strictly codified in law. BM are only used for deduplication(1b+ population), and authentication.

3) For KYC(Know your Customer) or E-Payments BM based authentication is much more secure than what's being used currently - signatures, and self attested xerox which anyone can forge/photoshop.

4) You can also ask Aadhaar server to dispatch an SMS to your mobile number every time an authentication happens. Now compare that your signature/xerox which anyone can forge/photoshop and you would have no idea about it.

5) In this changing world who would you want to control identity? A private company like Apple which can block you or some developer anytime and there would be no recourse? Or a govt agency - backed by a law of Parliament - that you can drag to court.

6) Want to build a marketplace for house-maids? Or for farmers? Don't want it bogged down by scamsters which in the end depressing adaption?

Easy add Aadhaar based autnetication to your app. http://bridge.aadhaarconnect.com/

7) For financial products like bank accounts, mutual funds etc Aadhaar brings down compliance cost. So for a MF while in the old system it wouldn't be viable to take an investment of less than 50k Rs because the compliance cost itself would be 1k Rs or something, now you can do it under 10 Rs.

Are we making a better world or not, in which the poor have access to Mutual funds, Insurance etc or Mozilla thinks it's not?

Please watch this https://youtu.be/LJCEyqcKN3Q?t=5m50s and tell me which other country in this world can match this. Getting a loan in under 8 minutes. Or opening a bank account in under 10 min.

This is a technological revolution - but not happening in Copenhagen or Zurich, but dusty villages of India.

I have had enough of these Aadhaar critics - and now Mozilla - who have colonised their minds with some western ideas, and are unable to see what's happening in India.

Bottom line, there's no better example of how technology can drastically change lives for the poor and the needy than Aadhaar.

Those who are unable to see it, are usually just biased because need clicks for their publications, or need to build their reputation as security analyst or something by bashing something. Look into this thread itself, and you'll find them linking to each other's twitter profile etc. Sickening really.

Can anyone please suggest an OSS variant in this space? I would kill to use something like this, but for my use case has to be OSS.

Check gingko, which is more focussed on docs, but is a tree editor at its core.

https://gingkoapp.com/

Used it at university for notes, and is great for quick revisions before the exams too!