HNHacker News
TopNewBestAskShowJobs

c52Andy

57 karma · joined November 21, 2011

reach out - a guy at aguyjohnson dot com
submissionscomments
c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
Very solid advice Geoff - thanks (for) giving. :) Finding 'the one' is what we'd prefer. The talent vs. availability thing can be tough. We have a friend and talented RoR hacker who's busy pulling a healthy 6 figure salary on account of his skills. He's been helpful in 'networking' to other hackers, but has no interest in leaving the comforts of his paying gig; it's the catch-22 that I imagine plagues a lot of startups.

I think you're right though - holding out for the one that's going to not only put in the time, but be rewarded with a fair founders share and (more importantly) see the product through to it's natural conclusion is the way forward. One more road block seems to be finding someone that wants to go from hacker to team manager.

Either way, and your FWIW is noted, we'd have to create a situation that either sets up a barter contract, an IC agreement that leverages a valuation on time, or create founders agreements that track the input toward future payout (basically what we're already doing) if we invited people over. I think any of those paths would forego any US lawbreaking since they'd be non-employees. It just seems like a lot of legal review (fees) and hassle though vs finding the one engineer and knowing that the partnership and mutual expectations are aligned.

Aloha~

c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
After posting this last night, I've been positively (literally) overwhelmed by the feedback both on and off HN. Discretion on some 'harsher' emails definitely appreciated :)

I wanted to revisit and expand on the original topic. I'd posted literally to ask the question hypothetically (no ulterior) of whether the scenario sounded equitable - not to actually try and source talent or 'fish.' That's one reason I was being vague on description... didn't see the need to go into it.

I now see the error of my ways. This is a community for hackers and while we are "idea people" on one level (not hackers), we're not just that... we're also (perhaps) misguided enthusiastic idiots who've also grown a couple profitable businesses along the way... "lifehackers" if you will (problem: earn money, feed family. solution: whatever it takes).

Since there's been a recurring "what's it about" thread I'll expand on this. Firstly, we have someone on board to start protoyping based on my designs; he plans to do so in Rails using an existing framework he's built. He's not in our basement. We're planning to pay him for that service, and are working with him on another job (not the start-up). In other words the post wasn't a 'hacker wanted' plea, but more of a "would it seem out of line" as we consider the prospects of how we could move from payment toward a push (on limited cash) to get something released in exchange for some kind of equity. A potential perk to building a team on limited resources.

One reason we need to consider it is that this guy, like every talented hacker on this board, has other irons in the fire and a career of his own to manage. So start-up may not be his bag, baby.

Who's bag might it be? Tough to say, but a lot of the feedback has been 'get personal already'. So, my name is Andy Johnson, and my wife is Michelle Blaine and we have a start-up company called Chef 52, Inc. Here's a bit about it from the late YC application we submitted if you're interested. It ought to give you the basic overview of the business, name our potential partners (disclaimer: nothing signed in blood yet) and give you a view of both our living room, and 'us' as people.

http://chef52.posterous.com/chef-52-described-for-ycombinato...

Don't let the bad hair and casual dress fool you. We bring a lot more to the table than an idea. We have 8 kids (yes, 8) that are alive, healthy and prospering in this world. Food was a critical component to that equation, and we're both passionate 'foodies'. Michelle is a stellar cook and has spent years working in the food industry; initially to support her habit spending years working in the film/TV industry - which she did so very successfully. She's also worked in music licensing and managed to build real value and equity for clients. She's a shrewd business woman, and a loving mother (more of the latter seen on video).

I was a touring musician 'in a past life' and have been passionate about food and cooking since I was a teenager. First because my Dad was an excellent cook so I grew up thinking a man's place WAS in the kitchen. Then in my early 20s as a necessity because my health went down the tubes... rock'n'roll lifestyle perhaps or luck of the draw. But either way, I used food and nutrition as the singular means to regain my health and well-being. Successfully! It was a total trip and changed my lifestyle forever. As a result I've been a vege/pescetarian coming up on about 19 years now.

About 11 years ago, having taught myself several 'creative' software apps and blagged my way into some print-production gigs, I took a job at one of the largest branding agencies in the world, Landor Associates. I spent 4 years forming the foundation to become an expert in digital production as it pertains to brand... This mostly meant font management and consultation, building logo suites for global brands based on initial designs, extending design into brand guidelines and stationery/presentation 'packages' including print mechanicals and digital equivalents (Word/PPT templates), creating interactive PDFs, and very rarely getting to do a little hand coding on HTML 'comps' for clients.

Since leaving Landor I've managed a freelance career as a designer/producer, continued to tour as a musician, wrote a few short film scores, had another baby, moved our family back to Maui (we've been in/out of the islands all our lives), skirted death in a motorcycle accident (and 'mostly' walked away), and hacked together a number of websites with Michelle as a passionate pursuit - sometimes for money... maybe even more than we should've been paid (see "shrewd business woman").

Since leaving film/TV and music licensing, Michelle has continued to raise our family, helped me grow my freelance business into what has become Johnson Beesley (we're a branding agency compiled of free-agents working cooperatively), built a mom-blog following and become a writer for food-buzz (which incidentally came on the heels of her deciding to write about food exclusively). She's also developed a modest following on twitter (@mControl); far more than I have (@johnsonbeesley).

We're friendly, astute, and staunchly creative people. We follow our hearts wherever they take us and let our brains catch up. We love people that surprise us with their kindness and intelligence and often loathe people that fail to surprise us by reaffirming our occasional desire to join what Bill Hicks coined as the "people who hate people club."

Our project, Chef 52, aims to be a culmination of our collective life experience. It represents something we know a lot about - people, friends, family, food, health and self employment.

The latter two are critical to our vision. We believe there's a behavioral change opportunity in this idea that would help people get 'out of the drive thru and back to the table.' We've watched childhood and adult obesity, diabetes, heart disease and all sorts of other nutritional fails claim people's lives. Some who were loved ones. So, we now have an idea that if effectively produced could put a dent in our declining eating habits as a culture (yes, we're doing market research on that too). The self-employment part is obvious. We've been 'without boss' and also location-independent as a result for close to 8 years now. We appreciate the freedom while never forgetting that we've actually been at that "oh crap we've got $7 to our name" point - with kids to feed, clothe and house. But we choose that lifestyle because we believe it's the best path in this single life we have.

<segue> "Single life we have" - we're not religious people, but to call us 'spiritually motivated' would be fair. Not 'crunchy' but a bit hard around the edges. You could call me an enthusiastic aethiest and I'd say that's pretty close to accurate. </segue>

So, that's us in a nutshell, and I felt like it was fair to post this given the personal feedback and time people have taken to express an interest in what started as hypothesis.

Now for some hacker comedy entertainment... Here's a collection of sites that Michelle and I have designed and/or built over the past several years... no 'web applications' but you'll get a sense of both our strengths and shortcomings in this domain. We're not clueless - but certainly not as thorough or knowledgeable as the people we'd like to help us execute the platform to deliver our vision and business:

www.johnsonbeesley.com (WP, not updated in ages) www.halblaine.com (WP with Thesis) www.mommysalad.com (WP with Thesis) www.everkaeo.com (WP with Thesis) www.laurapickering.com (flash, so no iPad ;) www.9fishsurf.com (flash)

We cobbled together a few sites in Joomla for a while around 2007 - but I think they've all gone the way of expired domains. It's safe to say they were crap (more so than what you may think of the above) but were a learning adventure nonetheless.

Thanks for reading, and if any of this makes you think "damn, I might want to work with these people" you can drop a line at ajohnson at johnsonbeesley and mblaine at johnsonbeesley.

Aloha~

c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
Super informative, and noted on the 23 yo "me," djb. I've had similar experiences in music (touring the country in a van post-25 years old starts to look pretty aggravating).

I'm about to supplement this thread because I feel the information shared has gone beyond the scenario question (which wasn't meant to carry any ulterior motive but simply help us ascertain what value that might hold in trying to hire a team).

That said, because of some of the talent that has responded with a 'I want to know more' proposition, I want to address that as a blanket comment.

-Aloha

c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
"Makes it look more like a vacation." True assuming an MVP in exchange for a short vacation sounds fair; and effectively that was our thought - spend the time to get it launched here, then go home.

BUT, equity in exchange would be restricted stock options with vesting clauses - so longer commitment required beyond an MVP. If we had e.g., 1/2+ the cash to pay a team for 6 weeks full-time that might be fair w/no equity and a 'paid vacation' on reduced salary; but I personally wouldn't go for that... not without an extra month of no-work live-in included anyway!

c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
This feedback is exactly why I posted - and thanks for the scenario. We def bring a lot more to the table than ideas (UI design, proven branding and marketing knowledge/experience; enough skills to jump in wherever needed and whenever needed - "Hey, write me some CSS for that page while I tweak xyz..." "OK, done.") - and the site is admittedly more of a marketing play then a tech play (words of another hacker that's reviewed materials to date). That said, super valid points re. someone 'hopscotching' and well spotted on 12hour days in Siberia. That said, I work about 16 on average and still enjoy the view (and weather) a lot more in those down hours - so surely environment carries some equity. No mai tais in Russia... good Vodka though!
c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
sure - ajohnson at johnsonbeesley dot com
c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
super helpful teyc, and duly noted. thanks again! =)
c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
Good point! We're early AirBnB adopters so we've had our fair share of awkward experiences - and you're right, the 'fermentation factor' is potentially high; but at least space is somewhat separated (downstairs/upstairs). Skype can be decent, but one never knows. Same feeling re. legal eagle - we're crucial on bullet-proof arrangements prior to any execution.
c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
Mahalo Shuzchen, the CTO I mentioned in another reply (a Rails guy) is on O'ahu. We've been working with him to try and find local hackers to work with; no cash is the prevailing 'fail' but we'd love to hook up with locals - I grew up on Kauai and our daughter (who's empty room is mentioned) was born on Maui. Was telling a SCORE guy here (also on TechHui) that we'd love nothing more to keep it local and stay brick and mortar here too. Any help appreciated; I'll email now.
c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
Thanks Geoff, solid advice.

Forgot to mention in post that we have an acting CTO/senior advisor that has held that role at several other companies (and currently employed as such) that would help us identify/vet the pair. He's interested but unwilling/unable to leave his job and he already lives in Hawaii! ;) But, he's going to basically 'donate' an hour a day to review code and help shape strategy, and is interested in coming on board for salary/equity if we can find seed.

We're still struggling with what constitutes fair equity. Obviously x% of 0 is still null. So on the one hand giving over founders share is attractive; on the flipside, we're trying to offer some cash/benefits up front to hackers while bootstrapping; wouldn't founder equity also include founder 'stakes' (no pay, doing it for the love/risk, etc.)?

c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
Thanks teyc. By scrappy do you mean it could be cobbled but the idea/marketing would trump poorly executed code?
c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
Thanks for the validation 'doc' :) We're hoping to find that right pair.
c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
Thanks Jade. "Yes I spend countless hours..." Exactly how we got here! Just emailed you at gmail.
c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
totally agreed abbasmehdi "find people who are..." and thanks for the comment.

regarding basic web development: we've built several sites over the last 10 years, but have never learned to hack in a language (e.g. RoR); just bits of code as needed and lots of 'wysiwyg' manipulation.

we're basically trying to build a web application and think given our current jobs and lives it would take us a year or longer (much, much longer!) to acquire that sort of skill set, so we think best handled by experts (or experts in training).

c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
email sent.
c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
just sent.
c52Andy··on Too little to offer for bootstrapped start-up?
Thanks wpietri, and excellent advice. Have some beginning docs and trying to schedule meeting with a couple Hawaiian start-up lawyers