petcat

China is not going to sell a dumbcar in USA. The software and comms hardware ban is an effective ban of Chinese cars.

yes USA can be protectionist, and it can also be paranoid. Especially when it involves millions of 2-ton autonomous robots operated exclusively by its major economic and geopolitical rival.

USA under Biden banned Chinese cars for exactly those reasons.

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/fact-sheet-safegua...

USA bans the onboard Chinese automotive software for national security reasons, effectively banning Chinese cars. This isn't a partisan political thing, Biden was the one that signed the Secure Equipment Act and Connected Vehicle Restrictions.

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/fact-sheet-safegua...

For all the talk about data and technology sovereignty in Europe, you would think they would take that more seriously too. Instead Europe is flooded with underpriced Chinese cars that they have no control over.

Apparently having a legal discussion that requires nuance is impossible in this forum.

Yes I think what they are doing is illegal and they should not be permitted to operate outside the gaming regulations of individual states.

But it doesn't matter what I think. I was trying to have a conversation about the gray areas and why we don't just send people straight to jail for trying out a new, novel, (and potentially illegal), business model.

The courts are figuring it out.

I'm not going to argue the merits of their business model. But the fact that numerous lawsuits have had mixed rulings indicates that there is at least some legal gray area here.

But if you know better then maybe you should just decree from the courtroom in your house and send your ruling to the AGs of all 50 states.

Right, but the point is that we don't just go from popular outrage about a shady business model to "straight to prison". The courts have to untangle the legalities of the shady business model before we can even determine what the charges would be. And that's what they're doing.

> should be in prison for promoting illegal gambling

The problem lies in the legal gray area of what constitutes gambling, and therefore "illegal" gambling. That's what the courts have to decide.

I think most people would say this is gambling. But our legal system has to rule on that before we can start putting people in jail for it.

Ehh I wouldn't try to appeal too much to what the LDS church thinks about this. They require members to give 10% of their annual income to the church, while already having close to $300 billion in the bank.

Everyone knows the state of Utah is largely run by the church.

Unfortunately Europe and the EU have allowed themselves to be squeezed on all sides by USA, China, and Russia through several decades of short sighted policy and extreme over-reliance on globalism.

The financial crisis in France and Italy, and the general societal unrest everywhere has not just come out of nowhere. Europe is just simply not competitive in the industries of the next 50 years and that is very unsettling to people.

There can be several motivations that are all equally valid. We should ask Europeans if they think national security has become a major concern in the face of their overwhelming reliance on USA technology and services.

USA bans the onboard Chinese automotive software for national security reasons, effectively banning Chinese cars.

For all the talk about data and technology sovereignty in Europe about USA tech, you would think they would take that more seriously too. Instead Europe is flooded with underpriced Chinese cars that they have no control over.

I was referring to the Stephanie part in the past tense. I doubt she's gone by that name since she was a child.

But yes, Stevie is very much still alive.

Such a thing will often happen as the result of a celebrity having the name. For instance, famed Fleetwood Mac singer Stevie Nicks, whose real name was Stephanie.

Nah this is like saying that Photoshop is open source just because you can download and run the binary on your own computer instead of through a SaaS webapp. I think basically everyone would disagree with that.

The risk is that USA and China will come together on a joint "AI non-proliferation" agreement in the same way that nuclear technology became restricted by the countries that already had the capability. This will lead to a de facto techno-colonization of the rest of the world just between themselves.

This was a topic of discussion at Trump and Xi's AI summit just last month. We're now starting to see the export controls coming into place.

Germany runs gas-fired power plants for electricity production.

Russian gas replaced Germany's own nuclear power. That's where the risk was and why the Nord Stream pipelines were so controversial.

But Germany wanted the cheap gas, so they ignored the risks and Russia ultimately invaded Ukraine.

We're talking about Germany shuttering their nuclear power plants despite USA warning them repeatedly that Russia was going to weaponize the Nord Stream gas dependence against them. Which is ultimately exactly what happened.

People only "change their mind" when it becomes an existential crisis. And energy security in Europe has reached that stage 10x.

Yes, the corporate entity is Dutch. The technology is not Dutch. ASML's own executives report that 80% of the tech does not originate from ASML, or even the Netherlands at all. This is what we're talking about.

In America it comes largely from California, New York, and Connecticut, as well as Germany, Japan, and elsewhere.

I wasn't trying to downplay ASML's important role in the commercialization of the machines. I was just responding to the comment "ASML is as Dutch as it gets" which is not remotely true.

The book Chip War [1] is a fascinating read if you're interested in the deeper history of all of this stuff. Highly recommended.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_War

Anyone can "hack". It's not really a skill anymore.

I was responding to your comment about the US Dept of Energy's role in the history of the technology. Also I quoted ASML executives describing themselves exactly as an integrator, not a developer of the technology. But you seem to be upset about this for some reason.

You can read about the history here if you're interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUV_lithography

Basically, US DoE invented the core tech and formed a consortium called EUV LLC to further develop the technology. ASML came along much later to acquire SVG in order to gain commercial access to the technology and research. The Dutch company "ASML" didn't actually invent most of it. They are just the integrator.

This is how ASML even describes itself:

> Board member Wayne Allan in 2023: “We're an integrator – we build some of the modules in our machines, but we procure a huge amount of materials and critical components from suppliers, nearly 80% of the components.”

Most of the valuable tech comes from American, German, and Japanese companies.

Very few people would even have the knowledge of who, how, or where to "sell" such vulnerabilities. Going through a public bounty program is pretty much always preferable.

Most people don't want to be felons.

ASML isn't a great example since it's largely American technology invented by the US government department of energy. The EUV light source itself is researched, developed, and manufactured entirely in California.

ASML is an important company but it is mostly just an integrator of technology from many different countries.

> People are subscription'd out

No, they're not. Maybe you are?

> A significant portion of people don't want AI in a lot of these things

Not true. People love AI. Specifically Android and iPhone AI. I doubt they even know or care about Anthropic or OpenAI.

> the ones that are eager to adopt it can use AI to bootstrap AI tools they use through a token router

Absolutely microscopic share of the overall market for "AI" users. We are hobbyists.

OpenAI models power Apple's Siri assistant